What's To Come

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Daramere
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Re: What's To Come

Postby Daramere » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:15 pm

Kakita Kasukaru wrote:
Daramere wrote:There were basically as many Crane Scout Personalities as Duelists and Courtiers. Indeed, given the explicit dueling Sensei, and the presence of a bunch of Duelists, I'm kind of surprised that duelling is what seems to be most identified as missing. If there was anything I would find lacking in the Crane options, it would be generic honor Courtiers, because that has been muddled into the "core theme" without having a "Courtier honor deck."

Ignoring your last jab, I'll come back to this. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote except this. Our duelling sensei (Tadanobu) is great and all, but he is extremely dependant on having decent duel decks to fuel him. Unfortunately, I don't know how Dragon decks with duelling are working, but Crane decks are not working in the duelling theme. I understand we have a semi decent scout deck (with no sensei or using the geisha one). I also understand that we have a good courtier honor and honor dishonor. However, duelling in Crane is simply lacking the good personalities with decent Chi and battle actions actually relevant to the theme and/or the (honor) victory condition. Tell me if I am wrong, maybe I missed something there?

You're missing that you're really not making the same complaint. There is a big difference between "this archetype is important to my Clan, and they didn't make any cards/themes representing that archetype" and "they made a bunch of Personalities and a Sensei for this archetype, but it turns out they weren't as good the decks based around our other archetypes." Design just not making Crane duel-centric cards at all for two years? That would just be bad design - you've got to give the clan access to something that iconic to the Clan's identity. But design putting those cards and theme out there, but it turns out that it isn't as competitive as you'd like it to be, or as some of your other decks are? That's just life.

It just isn't possible for design to fine-tune the power level of different themes so that they're all playable, but this one that's slightly more iconic is always just a little bit better (or even that it's always good, but not too good). I presume that they could make sure that, say, Crane honor dueling is the best Crane deck. But they can only assure doing that if they deliberately aim to make the other themes bad, or they deliberately aim to make the dueling deck too good. And either of those would be a non-starter. And that's assuming that it would be a good idea to always have the exact same archetype always be the best deck for a Clan, which I would submit is not a good idea. If only because I'd like some variety.

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Re: What's To Come

Postby Martino » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:30 pm

But you know that dueling is unusual among most themes with most clans in that its primary functional action, the duel, has an unspoken targeting restriction: You cannot target someone with higher Chi. That's the issue with Crane dueling right now, and unfortunately once you slide into the realm of "not very strong," there is only a thin line to "completely unplayable." Right now we have one non-unique duelist with 4 Chi, and a handful of non-duelists with 4 of 5 Chi. In order to even most of the time be able to play our duels, we have to make a weird hodgepodge of personalities, and the many 3chi duelists are nearly unplayable because we have to devote an item to them just to get up to many possible targets' chi, and still hope the opponent isn't playing any weapons.

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Kakita Shiro
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Re: What's To Come

Postby Kakita Shiro » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:34 pm

Martino wrote:But you know that dueling is unusual among most themes with most clans in that its primary functional action, the duel, has an unspoken targeting restriction: You cannot target someone with higher Chi. That's the issue with Crane dueling right now, and unfortunately once you slide into the realm of "not very strong," there is only a thin line to "completely unplayable." Right now we have one non-unique duelist with 4 Chi, and a handful of non-duelists with 4 of 5 Chi. In order to even most of the time be able to play our duels, we have to make a weird hodgepodge of personalities, and the many 3chi duelists are nearly unplayable because we have to devote an item to them just to get up to many possible targets' chi, and still hope the opponent isn't playing any weapons.

As a point of order :geek:, Crane have two non-Unique 4C Duelists, Kakita Mitsumichi and Shune.
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Re: What's To Come

Postby Martino » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:52 pm

Okay I forgot about Shune lol

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Kakita Kasukaru
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Re: What's To Come

Postby Kakita Kasukaru » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:34 am

Daramere wrote:Design just not making Crane duel-centric cards at all for two years? That would just be bad design - you've got to give the clan access to something that iconic to the Clan's identity. But design putting those cards and theme out there, but it turns out that it isn't as competitive as you'd like it to be, or as some of your other decks are? That's just life.

Fair enough, but that's been the case since, what? Celestial? To feel that the theme you are good at is not just reflected in RPG fluff but also somehow in what is the engine of the story, the CCG, we need to have some mechanics reflecting this. Duelling for honor is supposed to be what we are good at and that's not reflected CCG wise. Hasn't been for the last 4 years. Actually, if you take a newbie to the game and introduce him to the Crane Clan (in the CCG), if you explain to him that our "shtick" is honor and duelling, he will be sorely disappointed. Of course, some of us remember the good old times when this was actually working... But not all.
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Daramere
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Re: What's To Come

Postby Daramere » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:41 am

Embassy of the Crane was through the end of Celestial, so that's the starting point for when there was last a good Crane deck with dueling.

Weren't you guys just basically bad at everything for the duration of Emperor Edition? Something like "Crane Clan: Emperor Edition in Hard Mode?" So the next two years didn't feature a good Crane dueling deck, but that wasn't a case of whether dueling was your good deck, it was just a case of Crane being bad generally. Totally a valid thing to complain about, but a different thing.

Then in Ivory you had an amazing military deck, further variations of which still seem to remain your best deck a year later. But that's only been about 1.25 years.

So it's inaccurate to say that Crane honor/dueling has not worked for 4 years, because that ignores Embassy of the Crane in the last year of Celestial. You could accurately say 3+ years, but that's a bit misleading because two of those years aren't about the strength of Crane honor/dueling compared to other Crane decks, they were about Crane overall being weak. Which basically just reduces this down to Crane Scouts being the best Crane deck (and a very good deck) during Ivory/20F.

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Daidoji Tacticus
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Re: What's To Come

Postby Daidoji Tacticus » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:43 am

I have been told (wasn't playing at the time) that there was a crazy Crane Honour deck in early EE based around Exquisite Gifts and Artisans - good enough to get Exquisite Gifts banned. At which point, yeah, Crane had nothing left that was remotely competitive.
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Martino
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Re: What's To Come

Postby Martino » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:50 am

The problem with dueling today isn't that they haven't printed dueling cards, because they have. It's because there were some very fundamental changes (no long focusing first as duelist), some generalized mechanical changes (an overall stat squish), and some specific thematic changes (the introduction of kensai as a broad range of personalities who can increase their chi by up to 2 completely within design intent) that have made dueling far riskier. In addition, the replacement of Steel on Steel with duels that are either refusable (Sanctionaed Duel), require a fragile defensive position (COAAT), or non-lethal (everything else), the reward for this risk has decreased.

When these paradigms shift, honor dueling will be good again.


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