Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

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Daidoji Tacticus
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Daidoji Tacticus » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:29 pm

Daramere wrote:Respondeat superior, Tacticus. Let the master answer. Some Crane who probably should have been worrying more about the alliance between two of the Crane's traditional enemies got the Otomo to go beyond the scope of an assigned mediation in a deliberate effort to mess up what could have been cool. I'm going to blame somebody. Might as well be you. :)


Wut. The Unicorn are traditionally a Crane ally, and the Dragon are traditionally a Crane "WTF do these people even want?", not an enemy. Why would you need to attribute the Otomo doing exactly what the Otomo always do to someone else? That's like saying the Scorpion need to be instigated into backstabbing someone, or that the Crab being rude is a Mantis plot. The Otomo don't need anyone to convince them to sabotage inter-Clan alliances, that is their entire raison d'etre.
Ceterum autem censeo Otomines esse delendam.

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Doji Satevis
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Doji Satevis » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:22 pm

Martino wrote:I think one of the subtle problems with Crane's overall narrative (and the reason I am actively trying to rekindle our war with the Lion) is that we often express our political savvy as achieving peace and alliance and friendship with our neighbors. This is a nice goal, but it doesn't lend itself to interesting stories. I would much prefer if our savvy expressed itself as us having the same kind of enemies that everyone else has, but that our political prowess prevents them from being allowed to do anything about it.

The war with the Lion and the perpetual Crane Imperial Consort from the pre-history of the game tied into each other nicely. The Lion hated us, and their armies massively outmatched ours. And yet, they could never force total war because the Emperor would always end up telling them to leave his in-laws alone. And the Lion couldn't do anything about it! It was lovely!


Lovely? I imagine it would be more boring than anything you protest against. A constant cycle of the same thing, over and over again? Again, is this not what we all wish to avoid?

I do not want to see the Crane become a military Clan, because the Crane are politicians and artisans and duelists. But I would like more variety in the use of those features than an endless cycle of provoking or being provoked by the same people (Lion) for the same reasons (... because, I suppose) -> stalling -> being bailed out for no other reason but marriage ties, not even successful lobbying or gifting or dueling or anything of the sort. Boring, repetitive and boring, and not "lovely" at all.

Let the Crane clash with whoever may need the clashing, when the clashes are needed and interesting, and let the Crane win on the Crane's terms -- non-military terms -- but on their own merit with those non-military terms, not simply "because someone else who actually has the power said so".


Daidoji Tacticus wrote:Wut. The Unicorn are traditionally a Crane ally, and the Dragon are traditionally a Crane "WTF do these people even want?", not an enemy.


Yes, that rather confused me as well, especially where the Unicorn are concerned.
"It does not matter if it takes me so long as they survive"

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Doji Makoto
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Doji Makoto » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:24 pm

Daramere wrote:, I think there have been some issues with the portrayal of the Crane. I just think that some folks are somewhat focusing on the wrong things. The Crane are supposed to be super-wealthy. We don't see that enough - I would say that there is just no excuse for the Crane routinely getting trounced by the Mantis in economic matters, but I think the excuse is that Mantis players care about it more than you do. The Crane are supposed to have allies all over the place, and are supposed to control social and artistic standards. We don't see flexing of that more subtle political muscle enough. Hand is really right here - this is what you guys should be asking for, and looking for.


Our wealth was errated early in last Kotei season :D
I hope that the "friends on the right places" will be shown in upcoming fictions.
We have Turqoise champion, and she didn't do a thing. So much for our artistic superiority.

But I agree with you. These are the typical (along with duels) Crane abilities. And believe me, I want at least some of them back. In a meaningful way.
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Doji Satevis
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Doji Satevis » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:54 pm

Doji Makoto wrote:
Daramere wrote:, I think there have been some issues with the portrayal of the Crane. I just think that some folks are somewhat focusing on the wrong things. The Crane are supposed to be super-wealthy. We don't see that enough - I would say that there is just no excuse for the Crane routinely getting trounced by the Mantis in economic matters, but I think the excuse is that Mantis players care about it more than you do. The Crane are supposed to have allies all over the place, and are supposed to control social and artistic standards. We don't see flexing of that more subtle political muscle enough. Hand is really right here - this is what you guys should be asking for, and looking for.


Our wealth was errated early in last Kotei season :D
I hope that the "friends on the right places" will be shown in upcoming fictions.
We have Turqoise champion, and she didn't do a thing. So much for our artistic superiority.

But I agree with you. These are the typical (along with duels) Crane abilities. And believe me, I want at least some of them back. In a meaningful way.


I do also, and continue to maintain that the point in the story right now is the time to work for it. Between the Progressive uptick -- even with Seiken taking the throne, you cannot kill off an idea that easily; it will just dig down deeper -- and even the upcoming storm of Onyx -- because rebuilding an empire and a culture is the same flowering put to a different purpose -- I feel the Crane are positioned to make their gifts in the social, political, cultural and yes, economic spheres known once again.

We need to push for it; I hope the Paths system gives us the opportunity to strike the anvil, even if it means submitting a path of our own creation.
"It does not matter if it takes me so long as they survive"

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Ultimatecalibur » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:05 am

Daidoji Tacticus wrote:
Daramere wrote:Respondeat superior, Tacticus. Let the master answer. Some Crane who probably should have been worrying more about the alliance between two of the Crane's traditional enemies got the Otomo to go beyond the scope of an assigned mediation in a deliberate effort to mess up what could have been cool. I'm going to blame somebody. Might as well be you. :)


Wut. The Unicorn are traditionally a Crane ally, and the Dragon are traditionally a Crane "WTF do these people even want?", not an enemy. Why would you need to attribute the Otomo doing exactly what the Otomo always do to someone else? That's like saying the Scorpion need to be instigated into backstabbing someone, or that the Crab being rude is a Mantis plot. The Otomo don't need anyone to convince them to sabotage inter-Clan alliances, that is their entire raison d'etre.


I think the Alliance Daramere thinks that should have been meddled with is the Crab/Scorpion Alliance (aka Pincer Gozoku) and not the Dragon/Unicorn marriage.

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Daidoji Tacticus
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Daidoji Tacticus » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:25 am

Oh. That would make sense, yeah. Except for the part where the Crane are somehow to blame for the Otomo doing what they always do.

And the part where giving a recommendation on who should marry into who, i.e. exactly what they were asked to do, is stepping beyond their mandate. I mean, the Otomo are massive dicks, but they weren't wrong here.
Ceterum autem censeo Otomines esse delendam.

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Martino » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:09 am

I think our involvement in the Dragon/Unicorn conflict was perfectly rational. The Unicorn have traditionally been allies, while our last meaningful contact with the Dragon was the War of Silk and Steel. The Dragon have also often been closer to our rivals in the Scorpion.

For one, we don't want to see Moto Naleesh join the Dragon, because she's pretty level-headed and reasonable. Especially since leadership of the clan would end up in the hands of Shinjo Min-Hee. We have an interest in there being fewer Champions who are as military-minded as her, and especially one who hates the Lion. I may not like the Lion, but at the time it made sense to watch out for our allies.

The other reason is that we're supposed to be the ones who do set social conventions. If we say that the soul of a Kami trumps a previous marriage arrangement, that needs to be the way it is. Our role as the leaders of social policy can't be meaningful if everyone can just ignore it when it is inconvenient for them. If they can, then we need a new reason to be cool.

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Asahina Shimato
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Asahina Shimato » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:39 am

Actually, I thought that the entire thing was meant to make Shinjo Min-Hee an ally of the Crane. That outcome has pretty much petered out (mainly because there hasn't been any fiction whatsoever), but I thought it was pretty good as a rationale for getting involved.

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Martino » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:53 am

That was, but I'm not sure how useful she really is unless we go to war with the Lion.

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Daramere » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:59 am

You guys are taking this way too seriously. One, note the repeated use of jokey faces in my lines on this subject. I know there's no tone on the internet, but that's why we've got those emoticon things. The Crane interference was kind of necessary to really make the drama of the whole thing really kick up a notch anyway - and it's not the Crane's fault that the plot was allowed to wither and die. Lighten up! Two, whether or not it makes political sense for the Crane to screw up the arranged marriage between Naleesh and Shikei is completely irrelevant to whether someone in the rooting section for their romance is going to resent said actions. That's like not being allowed to boo a sports rival because it was rational for them to play their best and defeat your favorite team.

P.S. You guys keep saying that you want things showing the Crane's ability to get things done politically, and yet when we're talking about how the Crane got something done politically in exactly the way the Crane do this sort of thing (by having the right person be friendly with the right person, and whispering a little suggestion into that friendly ear), you just want to blame the Otomo. Have some fun! Revel in your political acumen! Not grumpy griping about how this is setting social conventions. Just have a little fun. Mock the Dragon delegation for proposing that Miaka marry Shikei. Point out how Dainagon totally had a crush on Naleesh, and you'd better watch out for those Crane socialites. Or something more clever than those. But you've got to be able to have some fun with it.


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