On Why The Harriers Had To Go

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Kakita Shiro
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Kakita Shiro » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:34 am

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Martino » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:44 am

Shawn, I have been asking, for years, and I am not the only one. I asked when it initially happened, and was ignored. I asked when scout military became a Crane theme, and was ignored. I asked when a Daidoji blew up the Dark Naga with explosives at Gencon last year, and still no official explanation.

Maybe the time for an explanation should have come at some point in the last 8 years, instead of after Nancy lied (since you dispute her claim that she made the call) in order to insult a group of already-upset customers. For what, her own enjoyment? What possible reason would she have had to say that to us? I've met Nancy several times and she has always been a very pleasant person, but this was wholly inappropriate, and just as un-called for as my reaction to it.

This is just going to be a point of contention between AEG and a lot of Crane players until it is resolved, and you guys are the only ones with the power to resolve it. A lot of Cranes have wanted the Harriers back since they went away, because they are really Uji's only legacy. But it has always fallen on deaf ears.

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Kakita Shiro
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Kakita Shiro » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:46 am

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Marketeer » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:33 am

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Martino » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:39 am

I agree, I would like to have a substantive discourse. I became upset because for years there was no substantive discourse. The statements made last week were really the first public statements on the subject any of us have ever seen. The nature and tone of those statements was, I'm sure you'll understand, frustrating and upsetting. I would prefer for there to be an official word on the subject that is approachable and professional.

If you're willing to make an official, substantive statement on the subject that answers these very simple questions, I am happy to listen and respond calmly:

1. What happened to the Harriers?

2. Why did it happen?

3. How can it be reversed?

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Marketeer » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:33 am

Ok, this is going to be a long, multipost response because I am at the day job. I will indicate when I'm done; there are a variety of intertwined issues that need to be examined, and explaining each will take some space. This is going to take several posts, and please keep in mind that each of these is still very much summarized.

First, it is important to look at the mechanical context of the time the Harriers were around in the CCG, and the narrative and setting problems it created.

Harriers were carded as high Personal Honor cards (3s on average, with some 4s and 2s), with Battle Actions that directly generated honor gains. They also had other supporting mechanics and Strategy cards, such as the traditionally Crane card at the time, To Do What We Must. These were fine mechanics, and on the whole were even good representations of the Crane as a whole

But that mechanical implementation of the Harriers is wrong on virtually every level. Harriers should be 0 or 1 PH, not a 3 average. Harrier actions should not be ones that directly gain you Family Honor. If anything, many harrier-esque actions should lose you honor for performing them. And Harriers should not work well with To Do What We Must--the narrative essence of the card is heroically, honorably, sacrificing yourself to bring down threats to your clanmates. This is the opposite of Harrier doctrine--Harriers are taught NOT TO "stand and fight heroically". Straight-up Crane bushi are the ones who do that, not Harriers.

So you had a mechanical theme that was parasitically taking things that were Crane but not "Harrier", and making it its own. This was weakening Crane's overall narrative and mechanical positioning. It also made other Clans and other themes look "dishonorable" because, well, if they were honorable, why wouldn't they be better at generating honor gains and honor wins than "scummy" Harriers (who weren't being printed as being scummy at all)?

So, that's part of the mechanical context, and an intro to the perception issues the Harriers were causing. Next post, which might not be for awhile, will be about how the perception of the Harriers was skewing players' (both in Crane and among the general playerbase) perception of how honor worked generally.
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Marketeer » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:55 pm

On to the issue of Harriers causing issues in how players perceive honor within Rokugan:

Harrier supporters liked to state that "Harriers sacrifice their honor for the good of the clan". While this is something Harriers in-setting tell each other, it is not accurate as an objective statement of how Rokugan works. The Harriers were members of the Crane Clan. They were trained by Crane sensei. They were housed and fed by Crane money and favors. And their missions were, up until they were disbanded, were ordered by the Crane Champion. But the idea was self-sustaining, in spite of the fact that even back then it did not hold up to reasoned examination.

So the crimes of the Harriers were (and are, because guilt in the empire is ongoing) crimes committed by the Crane Clan. Further, the canon is clear that the Harriers were almost entirely deployed by the Crane against the other clans, not the shadowlands or other threats. This lead to other problems, namely:

How can the core of the Crane be art, society, culture, and honor when the clan itself backs a treasonous unit for purely self-interested gains? Or, to put it another way:
"When Crane detractor players say the Crane are just Scorpion with better publicity and worse motives, aren't they right?"



The rest will have to wait until I have more time.
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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Martino » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:27 am

Well I think it's important to note that last year Crane was very strong in the CCG, won a number of Koteis, and yet the vast majority of people playing that very good Crane scout deck clearly identified as either indifferent about the story or simply not as Cranes. Cranes players were overwhelmingly uninterested in that deck. So even when Crane are good in the CCG, theme has a huge impact on whether or not we play. If the Crane had a viable decktype that really felt like a Crane deck, you would see it in the numbers.

I'm not pleased with the in-game themes right now. We can play some kind of dishonor deck, which doesn't appeal to me at all because courtier dishonor is a Scorpion deck. We can play a magistrate honor deck that doesn't appeal to me because it is designed not to duel. We can play scouts that aren't harriers. I know design is outside of your purview, but these things matter. We have to really strongly feel the themes we want to feel from SOMEWHERE.

As for Harriers specifically, UI agree that their Lotus-era implementation made no sense. But at the core, I think a lot of Cranes loved the idea of a small force of saboteurs who were able to stymie much larger forces long enough for our courtiers to get the Emperor to tell the aggressor to stop. We don't need to be assassinating people or poisoning the water or anything, but destroying supplies, blowing up bridges, etc, is something that Crane players REALLY want.

So I ask you, what do we do to get those guys?

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Kakita Onimaru » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:34 am

If you're having Crane problems I feel bad for you son,
I've got 99 problems but a duel ain't one!

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Re: Crane Paths and Kotei Choices

Postby Dare » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:44 am

@Onimaru

This and the other active thread speak completely against what you say people want though.

All anyone is demanding is courtiers, court control, duelists.

That IS the core stuff. The stuff I find offensively boring. I've always been clear how much I prefer stories that pull clan identities, characters, etc, way out of whack. Seishi for warlord. Keitaro's special little Anvil. This stuff was fun.

"Courtier says some courty things and a duelist stabs someone" is the opposite. Those are boring stories. But those are the stories the "most" people demand.


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