Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Casual conversations about anything you want!

Choose your path!

Poll ended at Thu May 28, 2015 2:05 pm

Alliance With The Unicorn/Safehold
0
No votes
Endure the Occupation
2
6%
The Path of Compassion
1
3%
Walking The Earth
0
No votes
Guard The Way
0
No votes
We Can Rebuild
0
No votes
The Path of Creation
2
6%
Blossoms In The Wind
0
No votes
Honorable Hostages
2
6%
The Left Hand's Duty
26
79%
 
Total votes: 33

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Daidoji Tacticus
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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Daidoji Tacticus » Mon May 11, 2015 3:38 am

Asahina Shimato wrote:If we can't conceal things from others we really suck as scheming courtiers. I think for once we should be able to demonstrate that with things like Cadence and our network of favors, we're more than a match for anybody's spies.


There's a difference between being able to conceal things at all, and being able to conceal a co-ordinated effort to funnel help to anti-Spider forces on a level that will meaningfully affect the outcome (especially when we are, with our other hand, helping Kanpeki's regime to function, and thus directly impeding the work of the resistance). Small groups of people can conceal things - that's why any successful covert operation does its best to minimise the number of people who know anything relevant. Every additional person who knows anything is someone else who can turn traitor or let something slip through carelessness, and it only takes one.

If the Crane were to take the role of Kanpeki's Left Hand, then I'm sure there would be individual Crane taking opportunities to help the resistance, and frequently paying a horrible price for it. It could make for some great stories. But the Clan as a whole would not be able to get away with anything but genuine support for Kanpeki, in deed if not in intent.

Edit: We're basically everybody's relative sitting there in enemy territory. If they actually like us I think this will motivate them to fight for the Empire.


If we take this path, they won't like us. We won't be people in need of rescue, we will be traitors to kill alongside the Spider when they finally win. Samurai culture does not give allowances for "oh, well, if they hadn't collaborated they would have died, so..."
Ceterum autem censeo Otomines esse delendam.

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Asahina Shimato
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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Asahina Shimato » Mon May 11, 2015 3:52 am

There's a danger to it, yes. But we're really the best chance of those who will inevitably end up left behind enemy lines. Maybe it's good that people expect us to do very little worthwhile work, just artsy-fartsy stuff that keeps the courts happy, right? Subtle obstruction of Kanpeki's government, civil disobedience... all things that we could do without drawing too much attention to ourselves. Also, if individual Crane are caught, it gives the ST the chance to show two things -

  • the Spider ninja being competent at ferreting out traitors, and
  • the Crane courtiers being competent in feigning ignorance and charming their way out of dangerous situations.

Also, I would very much like it if you could refrain from calling my suggestion a path of collaboration, there is an appreciable difference between collaborating and resisting. It's a thin line, true, and that makes for awesome stories. But ultimately, it matters what you're in it for. If we do it to save people, and feed people, and preserve the Empire's culture, and never forget that the ultimate goal is to end Jigoku's influence on the throne, and if other clans will begin to feel that we actually help them with intelligence and logistics, it'll bring them around. I think a cooperation with the Scorpion #2 path would be interesting. We distract and provide intelligence and material, they strike.

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Doji Satevis
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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Doji Satevis » Mon May 11, 2015 4:02 am

Daidoji Tacticus wrote:Dragon territory is wonderfully safe from everything except starvation. Also, hordes of Jigoku-powered pyromaniac Yobanjin.


Still, I would like to hear what the Dragon would be willing to bring to the table -- let us not cut off our nose to spite our face, especially as the last time I looked, the Unicorn are somewhat divided on us.


Daidoji Tacticus wrote:I am not particularly enthused about tying ourselves specifically to the Iweko dynasty, which I don't particularly care for and (more importantly) have serious doubts about the survivability of. The general approach is worth pursuing, though, I agree.


I feel I must agree, here; the Iweko as a house is tiny, and going to be directly in the line of fire when hell rolls over Rokugan. Better the Empire itself survive in some form than to tie ourselves to a specific ruling line at the moment -- be it Iweko or Kenpeki.


Asahina Shimato wrote:So, I think the message is that staying there and fighting will not work. For whatever reason, Jigoku-Kanpeki will be too strong (at least that's how I interpret it) and all clans opposing him are forced into exile. So our path, if we really want to serve the Empire, has to be to ENDURE.
We need to stick it out, and hopefully help steer the course of history towards the right path. I am thinking Kakita Yoshi in his role as Imperial Advisor to Hantei Sotorii - there was a fiction where he was accused of being a spy of the Emperor, but he was in truth a double agent serving the Crane at a high personal risk.

And yes, this will probably be a decision that forces us to take something similar to path #2 AT FIRST, but with the intention of helping the other clans in their insurgence against the usurper. And if they - in their ignorance - get to call us dishonorable, we get to duel or convince them, both would give us a chance to show our strengths.

The alternative paths that haven been suggested here have inspired me, I have to say, the Safehold approach in particular. However, I think Left hand to the Iwekos would basically amount to being path #1 if I'm right that it would force us into exile. If it would be an option to keep the Iweko on the throne, I suspect we would take it without hesitation. They force us to make a decision for a reason.

tl;dr - I think our path should be one of Enduring the Occupation. Play all sides but serve only the Empire, and demonstrate why we are the true heart of it. We can't leave, it will rip the living, beating heart out of the Empire's chest. The Emperor, whoever he may be, will not last as long as we do.

Edited for mixed metaphors. Ugh.


Thank you for the note of confidence *g*

I think it could be possible to play all sides, as you say, or rather most sides, without engaging Kanpeki; not only for principles, but this -- surrounded by Spider, what happens to the Crane courtiers if Daigotsu revokes the restraints on the Taint? Which I, for one, am entirely expecting to have occur. Suddenly, directly dealing with the Clan of Jigoku becomes far, far more of a hazardous proposition while remaining uncorrupt looks far, far less likely ...

But whatever the path, we must stay within Rokugan, yes.
"It does not matter if it takes me so long as they survive"

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Asahina Shimato
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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Asahina Shimato » Mon May 11, 2015 5:01 am

For inspiration:
I see us in the role of Richard Attenborough's character in The Great Escape (1963). Any one man can escape a prison camp. It's an entirely ludicrous idea to try to escape with ALL men, but if anybody can devise the plan, organize it, and motivate the men, it's Squadron Leader Roger "Big X" Bartlett. And they do it with art and that touch of perfection that I think is very Crane.

Edit: By which I don't think that we should try to escape, but, you know, make things happen in general.

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Kakita Kasukaru
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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Kakita Kasukaru » Mon May 11, 2015 5:03 am

I think we are lacking a couple of info to make a reasonable choice. When I read the other Clans paths, I got the impression that Kanpeki (from the description made) would not control the entrie Rokugan territory but somehow challenge the Iweko's dynasty by invading militarily and probably subverting as well (they have ninjas too). Now you guys seem to imply that this would be just a repeatition of the KYD setting where everything has fallen under Jigoku control. I don't think it's going to be that way, unless of course the Story Team tells us otherwise. There will be parts of Rokugan territory not under the control of Kanpeki. These will have to be where the true Emperor or his heir are staying. An heir, if I understood well today's fiction, that we will have help train... These are the parts where we must maintain Rokugani laws, traditions, organisation and culture. That's where our path lies, not in the colonies, nor in bowing to the usurper and playing double agents (which we are notoriously not good at and should be a Scorpion thing anyway). I know, the temptation is to bow to the enemy under pretense of playing the long term. But that's never going to work. Especially not against people who have supernatural ways to see through lies and deception...
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Asahina Shimato
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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Asahina Shimato » Mon May 11, 2015 6:17 am

We don't have an heir yet, because Seiken is not even married and he definitely didn't sire an heir. Do we know the Iweko dynasty survives before Natsuyo's vague plans come to fruition? We don't. In fact, it's a bit doubtful given what we've learned, even though Natsuyo has no way of knowing this - all those paths calling Kanpeki "the Emperor"?

Also, I highly disagree with your assessment that "we're bad at this" and "it should be a scorpion thing". Why don't you just hand over the courts to them entirely, with that defeatist attitude? "Supernatural ways to see through lies and deception"? So why do the Scorpion stand a chance then?

I understand that you don't like the path I'm suggesting because it isn't squeaky clean. I just wanted to bring something to the table that's heroic in its own way and isn't just "Crane scouts try their best." And we're never going to get anything but if we cast our ability to succeed at the simplest of plots into question.

I like your alliance building approach by the way, but I'd like to do it behind Kanpeki's back and with an extra dose of risk. It seems more heroic that way, and it would give me a great amount of enjoyment if for once we could trick the Spider instead of the other way around.

As for leaving this to the Scorpion - they can Own the Shadows. I suggest we trick Kanpeki in broad daylight. We're the Faceman of Rokugan, and if we're bad at this, I don't know what we would be good at.

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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby MirumotoDaisuke » Mon May 11, 2015 6:36 am

Daidoji Tacticus wrote:Dragon territory is wonderfully safe from everything except starvation. Also, hordes of Jigoku-powered pyromaniac Yobanjin.

That's why I said "fairly safe".
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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Daramere » Mon May 11, 2015 7:08 am

Doji Satevis wrote:
Daidoji Tacticus wrote:Dragon territory is wonderfully safe from everything except starvation. Also, hordes of Jigoku-powered pyromaniac Yobanjin.

Still, I would like to hear what the Dragon would be willing to bring to the table -- let us not cut off our nose to spite our face, especially as the last time I looked, the Unicorn are somewhat divided on us.
Daidoji Tacticus wrote:I am not particularly enthused about tying ourselves specifically to the Iweko dynasty, which I don't particularly care for and (more importantly) have serious doubts about the survivability of. The general approach is worth pursuing, though, I agree.

I feel I must agree, here; the Iweko as a house is tiny, and going to be directly in the line of fire when hell rolls over Rokugan. Better the Empire itself survive in some form than to tie ourselves to a specific ruling line at the moment -- be it Iweko or Kenpeki.

I do not claim to know, at the moment, what the Dragon playerbase overall is going to want. But I will note that Dragon's sentiment for things along the lines of a dedicated Defend the Emperor/Throne/Empire sort of Path are heavily focused on the Iweko specifically, given that the Iweko Dynasty is the result of the Dragon's win in the Race for the Throne.

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Doji Satevis
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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Doji Satevis » Mon May 11, 2015 7:14 am

Daramere wrote:I do not claim to know, at the moment, what the Dragon playerbase overall is going to want. But I will note that Dragon's sentiment for things along the lines of a dedicated Defend the Emperor/Throne/Empire sort of Path are heavily focused on the Iweko specifically, given that the Iweko Dynasty is the result of the Dragon's win in the Race for the Throne.


I would not expect otherwise *g*
"It does not matter if it takes me so long as they survive"

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Re: Another Way - Proposals for Alternate Story Paths

Postby Kakita Kasukaru » Mon May 11, 2015 7:16 am

Asahina Shimato wrote:We don't have an heir yet, because Seiken is not even married and he definitely didn't sire an heir. Do we know the Iweko dynasty survives before Natsuyo's vague plans come to fruition? We don't. In fact, it's a bit doubtful given what we've learned, even though Natsuyo has no way of knowing this - all those paths calling Kanpeki "the Emperor"?

Also, I highly disagree with your assessment that "we're bad at this" and "it should be a scorpion thing". Why don't you just hand over the courts to them entirely, with that defeatist attitude? "Supernatural ways to see through lies and deception"? So why do the Scorpion stand a chance then?

Fair enough about the heir thing. I am only assuming things, like everyone else. Just meant to remind everyone that we don't know at all if Kanpeki will be the actual Emperor or just claim it to be or if he will control any significant territories, etc. Which has a serious impact on any kind of path we'll take. All we know for sure is that he will attempt to merge Jigoku and Rokugan and take over the Emperor throne. We don't know if he will succeed... As for the supernatural issue, Scorpion shugenjas have tricks we don't have which allow them to do this job. They have entire schools dedicated to this. I am not defeatist, merely pragmatist (Kurohito style). I think we would be better at the "wandering magistrate style" than the ninja courtier style.

Asahina Shimato wrote:I understand that you don't like the path I'm suggesting because it isn't squeaky clean. I just wanted to bring something to the table that's heroic in its own way and isn't just "Crane scouts try their best." And we're never going to get anything but if we cast our ability to succeed at the simplest of plots into question.

I understand your perspective and I mean in no way that you are trying to make us defect to the Jigoku side. This said, there is a difference between awesome story but with about 1% chances of success or survival and a still great story but which doesn't make other Clans think that we are just collaborators of Jigoku (even if WE know it's not true). That's just my opinion of course. I agree with you that we pretty much know what "Crane scouts try their best" will achieve. That's the KYD story and we get exactly 1 survivor.

Asahina Shimato wrote:I like your alliance building approach by the way, but I'd like to do it behind Kanpeki's back and with an extra dose of risk. It seems more heroic that way, and it would give me a great amount of enjoyment if for once we could trick the Spider instead of the other way around.

I understand that as well and I could see it as a kind of fall back approach, should Kanpeki manage to completely take over Rokugan... But I doubt it will be so complete.

Asahina Shimato wrote:As for leaving this to the Scorpion - they can Own the Shadows. I suggest we trick Kanpeki in broad daylight. We're the Faceman of Rokugan, and if we're bad at this, I don't know what we would be good at.

And I believe we should be the Faceman again, but not in the shadow, not under the rule of Kanpeki. We should help organize the resistance, not pretend to crush it. We should embody openly and sincerely the values of Bushido, because that's what we live for. We are the Clan of honor! Not the Clan of trickeries...
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