Coronation - 2015-08-25

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Doji Pheelyp
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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby Doji Pheelyp » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:10 am

I wonder if Kakita Kae blowing up the Dark Naga (or the building that crushed the Dark Naga) with gaijin pepper would be mentioned eventually.
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AsahinaD
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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby AsahinaD » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:23 am

That would have been funnier if she ended up married with Seiken. "Honey, blowing up things is not that bad if you know the way. Have I introduced you to the new head of the Empress's Guard, Daidoji Tobei san?"

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Kakita Onimaru
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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby Kakita Onimaru » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:54 am

The only thing I don't like about this is that making what the Harriers do basically legal undermines the interesting conversations we were having about the limits of honor. All the same, Harriers 2.0 is go!
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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby Himoto » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:27 am

This is a win for the Crane.

What we gained:

1. We managed to disavow the Harrier once and for all.
The Emperor now has an official position on the Harrier. It's the Crane's position ("Rogue unit that the Crane clan would have never tolerated!"). This is pretty important. The emperor's word is law, after all, and the emperor has effectively decreed that the Harrier's treason would not taint the rest of the clan further.
Considering that the REAL reality is that multiple Daidoji daimyo knew these guys ; and a few clan champions as well (which made at the very least the entire family and most likely the whole Crane clan guilty of treason the way Rokugan works), this is not exactly a bad thing.
The Harrier's existence should still stay secret - it is still shameful, and the emperor is doing us a favor by keeping this whole thing secret - but it is now far less damaging than it had the potential to be. It would create a significant loss of face, rather than spell the doom of the clan.

2. And to get permission to legally study gaijin pepper.
This may seem small, but the fact that it can be done legally means these samurai no longer has to get into the "I'm breaking imperial law for the good of the Clan!" mindset. Which may help them not get into the treason mindset. Dishonorable, but not treasonous is a pretty major point. (There is also the possibility that while the Emperor won't defend the Crane, he won't openly condemn us and just let the other clans do what they may if our black powder activities are exposed. That's also an improvement over imperial censure and condemnation.)

3. And to get permission to use it on enemies of the empire.
See: Onyx Edition. Whatever it may be in the long term, for the next while of storyline "enemies of the empire" are likely to be our biggest concern anyway.

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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby Martino » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:31 am

So, three things:

First, the Harriers as they were originally were INCREDIBLY dishonorable. Like, not even a semblance of honor. In the setting, they were the ultimate example of hypocrisy, that the Crane could hold themselves up as among the most honorable people in the Empire and yet be knowingly breaking an Imperial Edict borne from the disaster of White Stag. We often as players muddle the difference between being COOL and being HEROIC. They were not heroic, they were cowards in the eyes of the Celestial Order. They took "To Do What We Must" in a direction never intended and in no way allowable. And yet, WE saw them as cool so we just choose not to care. The story team still needs to impress upon the audience the repercussions of Harrier activity because they did not in the past and it got out of control with the players.

Second, on a minor note, the use of gaijin pepper is not illegal in the Colonies because the Imperial Edict only applies to the Empire, in the same way the Imperial Edict against war between clans was interpreted by the Emerald Champion not to apply in the Colonies. Kae's actions were legal, if unconventional.

Third, THE DAIDOJI GET TO BLOW UP ONIS AND THAT IS AMAZING!

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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby MirumotoDaisuke » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:21 pm

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KakitaKaori
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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby KakitaKaori » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:07 pm

Martino wrote:So, three things:

First, the Harriers as they were originally were INCREDIBLY dishonorable. Like, not even a semblance of honor. In the setting, they were the ultimate example of hypocrisy, that the Crane could hold themselves up as among the most honorable people in the Empire and yet be knowingly breaking an Imperial Edict borne from the disaster of White Stag.


While not necessarily disagreeing, I might offer that I am sure there are imperial edicts about opening black scrolls and practicing maho, and the consequences for those actions tend to be far worse for the Empire. So this discussion may come up again for other clans.
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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby Himoto » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:56 pm

Maho yes. The Phoenix have a whole school dedicated to rooting out maho, and the Phoenix champion and elemental council have never supported the use of maho by their clan. Any use of Maho among the Phoenix would be the work of treasonous elements that the Phoenix leaders would like nothing better than to root out.

Black Scrolls wise, I don't think there ever was an applicable Imperial Decree. In addition, the Phoenix opened the scrolls in an effort to understand the nature of a threat facing the empire (following the opening of the first scroll by Junzo, which was out and out dishonorable). Moreover, opening the scrolls proved key to Rokugan winning the second day of thunder. And finally, the clan sort of got wiped out almost to the last in the wake of the Second Day of Thunder (some flavor texts from the era IIRC refered to the Phoenix being demoted to minor clan for the duration of their rebuilt, though I don't remember where I've seen that), so there wasn't much of a clan left to punish even if anything re the Black Scrolls had deserved punishment.

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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby Marketeer » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:01 pm

Himoto wrote:Maho yes. The Phoenix have a whole school dedicated to rooting out maho, and the Phoenix champion and elemental council have never supported the use of maho by their clan. Any use of Maho among the Phoenix would be the work of treasonous elements that the Phoenix leaders would like nothing better than to root out.

Black Scrolls wise, I don't think there ever was an applicable Imperial Decree. In addition, the Phoenix opened the scrolls in an effort to understand the nature of a threat facing the empire (following the opening of the first scroll by Junzo, which was out and out dishonorable). Moreover, opening the scrolls proved key to Rokugan winning the second day of thunder. And finally, the clan sort of got wiped out almost to the last in the wake of the Second Day of Thunder (some flavor texts from the era IIRC refered to the Phoenix being demoted to minor clan for the duration of their rebuilt, though I don't remember where I've seen that), so there wasn't much of a clan left to punish even if anything re the Black Scrolls had deserved punishment.


Himoto is correct in relation to the Black Scrolls. There is a difference in both intent and effect, compared to the Harriers.

The intention of the Phoenix was, according to the original canon, to seek a way "to fight the rising tide of darkness". They were the ones who discovered the Prophecy of the Seven Thunders and spread that knowledge to the Empire. So, both intention and effect was ultimately positive, although the Phoenix bore a significant cost. Also, the canon does not point to any statement in relation to opening of the Scrolls.

Contrast that with the Harriers. They were deployed primarily, possibly solely, against the other Clans. The unit was created, and secretly backed, trained, and funded by generations of Crane leadership with knowledge that their actions were illegal and that they would be used against loyal samurai of the Empire. So there was only a malign intention--a treasonous one--and the result was that honorable samurai were killed by a weapon specifically barred by Imperial Decree.

So you can fairly the Harriers to the Phoenix opening the Black Scrolls--but the result of that comparison is a harsher condemnation of the Harriers.
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Martino
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Re: Coronation - 2015-08-25

Postby Martino » Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:30 am

So what you're saying is that the story team should make sure to give us lots of threats to the empire to fight so I don't get bored and try to blow up Shiro Matsu :)


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