Doji Hotaru Clarification

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KakitaKaori
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby KakitaKaori » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:09 pm

That...sucks....I haven't met that many benevolent opponents.
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Doji Yoshi » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:31 pm

Dare wrote:Your quoting of the timing steps of claiming the ring in resolution are entirely incorrect, because Hotaru isn't claiming a ring in resolution, she's merely resolving the Ring that you just claimed as part of resolution.

Then you misunderstood me. The timing steps were mentioned to point out that her Reaction happens after the rule reference window for resolving ring effects as the attacker. I was merely pointing out that her card states to resolve the ring's effects AFTER you could normally do them anyway. This proves that the card is already overriding the rulebook text (by resolving a ring effect outside of 3.2.6) and therefore definitely in the realm of the Jade Rule.

The jade rule isn't applicable because you're not contradicting any rulebook effects.

False, see above.
Hotaru allows you to resolve the Ring's effect. So you resolve the effect, and the effect is "the attacking player does X". So by using Hotaru on defence, you are triggering an effect that gives the attacking player a benefit. There's no text anywhere that would suggest that you suddenly become the attacker (unlike on other similar cards). It's not about "only the attacker can trigger the ring", it's that the effect of the ring is very literally "the attacker does X". You are not the attacker if you claim the ring on the defence.

None of the resolution of a conflict apply to Hotaru's ability (outside of timing).

Now we've SEEN templating that suggests FFG are aware of the difference, since other effects say "As if you were the attacker", which Hotaru and Toturi omit.


I should make it very clear, I am in no way making any inference as to what was intended, but the rules for this are simple, if unintuitive. Trigger ring, ring SPECIFICALLY gives attacker the benefit. Perhaps "As if you were the attacker" was left off by accident, perhaps it was deliberate, but the reason behind the ruling is very clear because that's what follows the rules.


We've already seen from FFG if something ISN'T intended (eg, stronghold switching provinces), then despite an initial ruling that acknowledges how it currently interacts with the rules, they're willing to make changes to make things work as intended.

It's not the end of the world either way, though it does knock off some of Toturi and Hotaru's power. If the intention is for them to work on defence, I'd expect to see a change to the RRG or the cards in due course. If there's no change, then they're working as intended. I'm nothing officially to do with FFG so I'm not going to make a case either way to which was intended.

Again, Hotaru's text is counter-intuitive to the rest of the rules. If there was an extra phrase of "when attacking" or "if you are the attacker" at the beginning of her reaction, none of this questioning would be here, on the FFG forums, or on Facebook. But it wasn't. So it was the original point to demonstrate a lack of clarity. Your original statement was "the rules are already very clear". Are they? According to the rules CARD > Rules Reference > Learn to Play Guide.
"Clearly if the rules had so much time to mention in ring effects that the attacking player resolves the effects, and the rings also point out that the attacking player does something, then they could clearly take the time to point out on Hotaru that it was while attacking. But they didn't. So she should work." - that's the line of thinking that some had.
And based on the fact that the card doesn't make sense within the rules, is at least a little bit why the card should work. That the rules reference contradicts Hotaru (attacking player only does stuff), and that on the defense you are resolving ring effects (according to Hotaru) is indication to me that the card works outside of the rules.

I'm not sure how someone can think that this is all clear.

In the future, I would hope that if anything needs to be clear, it needs to be the verbage written on the cards and not the reliance on the rules reference.

One last note: I hope you don't think I'm arguing for the sake of the power scope of Hotaru, or Toturi. She's not even a courtier, psh, like I'd ever play her!
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Dare » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:08 am

KakitaKaori wrote:One more hopefully dumb question. As written, it does not say you may resolve the ring effect. It says resolve the ring effect. Done on defense, does that now mean it automatically resolves in the attacker's favor or can you choose not to resolve it at all?


Reactions are not forced. If you choose not to trigger Hotaru's Reaction after defending with her, you don't give the attacker a double ring.

What you CAN do with it, is FORCE your opponent to trigger the ring. Let's say you used Elemental Fury to swap the ring to Water when he attacked, and all your dudes had Fate on them. He can choose not to resolve it as part of the resolution, however if you react with Hotaru he's forced to actually resolve the effect, which might probably bow one of his dudes at home. It's niche, but plausible.


Doji Yoshi wrote:/snip


You're still not understanding the argument, so let's use a hypothetical.


If a Ring's effect was "The person sat to the right of the attacker eats a burger".

You resolve it with Hotaru, the action you are resolving is "The person sat to the right of the attacker eats a burger". In this instance, it doesn't matter whether the attacker or defender resolves the ring, the person to eat the burger will always be the person sat to the right of the attacker.


If an event said "Action: Choose an attacking character - Bow that character", and the attacker as a reaction used an effect that said "Interrupt: When an opponent plays an event, you choose all targets", it would STILL be bowing an attacker. The attacker wouldn't suddenly bow a defender, because the ability still refers to an attacker.

Now you trigger an ability that reads: "The attacking player chooses a character in play and
chooses to honor or dishonor that character". It doesn't matter WHO triggers it. The effect is the same. The effect is that the attacking player chooses a character to honour or dishonour. It doesn't matter who triggered that effect, part of the effect SPECIFIES the attacking player's choice.

As the defender, you are not the attacking player. I understand you don't think it SHOULD work this way, or think it wasn't intended. But I'm like 90% sure you're being deliberately dense in your inability to read what the ring EFFECT says. If somehow you're not, I'd suggest you use the rules submission form on FFG to argue with the designers directly, since arguing against the ruling after it's been made isn't going to achieve anything or trigger a change :P

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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby KakitaKaori » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:45 am

I could be wrong.... the intricacies of timing are far above my head...but I think Yoshi-san is mostly arguing that the idea that Hotaru working right on defense is not a stupid or illogical conclusion to reach. It's not how it ended up being read, but it's not unreasonable to have concluded that that is how it should have worked. It is also not unreasonable to have concluded that it should have worked as ruled. In either event, I guess we just hope for a revision....or await in awe the coming of Toshimoko or Yoshi.
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Doji Yoshi » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:02 pm

Dare wrote:
Doji Yoshi wrote:/snip


You're still not understanding the argument, so let's use a hypothetical.


If a Ring's effect was "The person sat to the right of the attacker eats a burger".

You resolve it with Hotaru, the action you are resolving is "The person sat to the right of the attacker eats a burger". In this instance, it doesn't matter whether the attacker or defender resolves the ring, the person to eat the burger will always be the person sat to the right of the attacker.


If an event said "Action: Choose an attacking character - Bow that character", and the attacker as a reaction used an effect that said "Interrupt: When an opponent plays an event, you choose all targets", it would STILL be bowing an attacker. The attacker wouldn't suddenly bow a defender, because the ability still refers to an attacker.

Now you trigger an ability that reads: "The attacking player chooses a character in play and
chooses to honor or dishonor that character". It doesn't matter WHO triggers it. The effect is the same. The effect is that the attacking player chooses a character to honour or dishonour. It doesn't matter who triggered that effect, part of the effect SPECIFIES the attacking player's choice.

As the defender, you are not the attacking player. I understand you don't think it SHOULD work this way, or think it wasn't intended. But I'm like 90% sure you're being deliberately dense in your inability to read what the ring EFFECT says. If somehow you're not, I'd suggest you use the rules submission form on FFG to argue with the designers directly, since arguing against the ruling after it's been made isn't going to achieve anything or trigger a change :P

Back to your example:
A ring says, "The attacking player chooses a character in play and
chooses to honor or dishonor that character".

Now let's focus on Hotaru. If I'm a designer, I couldn't had Hotaru read:
1. After you resolve a ring effect as the attacker during a (political symbol) conflict in which this character is participating -- resolve that ring's effect again.
2. When attacking, after you claim a ring during a (political symbol) conflict in which this character is participating -- resolve that ring's effect.
3. If you were the attacker, after you claim a ring during a (political symbol) conflict in which this character is participating -- resolve that ring's effect.
4. After you claim a ring as the attacker during a (political symbol) conflict in which this character is participating -- resolve that ring's effect.

The designers could've picked any of those phrases and more to clarify. They didn't.
What does Hotaru say:
Hotaru says "After you claim a ring during a (political symbol) conflict in which this character is participating -- resolve that ring's effect."

So people are reading it as:
"After you claim a ring [as attacker or defender] during a (political symbol) conflict in which this character is participating -- resolve that ring's effect."

If you claim the ring as the defender, and the ring doesn't work, because the ring says "as the attacker", the card and the rules interfere with one another. As a result, normal people will infer that card > rules. This results in Hotaru working.

But, it has been ruled the opposite. How would this be clear?
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Dare » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:16 pm

So people are reading it as:
"After you claim a ring [as attacker or defender] during a (political symbol) conflict in which this character is participating -- resolve that ring's effect."


So your argument is it's unclear because people are adding words to the card that don't exist? :P


If you claim the ring as the defender, and the ring doesn't work, because the ring says "as the attacker", the card and the rules interfere with one another. As a result, normal people will infer that card > rules. This results in Hotaru working.


The part of this that is wrong though is the implication that you're inserting Hotaru's resolution of a claimed ring into the timing framework. She is in no way modifying the resolution of the conflict or overruling it. Yes her timing is when you claim the ring, HOWEVER she's not inserting the resolution of that ring into the place it would normally resolve. She's not resolving ring effects as part of conflict resolution, she's resolving ring effects as a reaction.

Resolve ring effects happens in 3.2.6 (but is skipped as you are the defender).
Hotaru's reaction happens after you claim the ring in 3.2.7.

So at no point are you conflicting with the rules. You have a reaction that is causing a ring effect to trigger SEPARATELY from the Conflict resolution, and the effect you're triggering specifies the attacker chooses/does stuff.

Also as mentioned before, there are cards that claim and resolve the ring and very clearly specify "as if you were the attacking player". THAT is how a card has to be worded currently to allow you to resolve the effect.


Whether or not the card could have been worded clearer, obviously if it was intended to work on both, or only work on attack, it could have and probably should have been worded clearer. But your insistence was that the ruling was wrong and didn't make sense. It DOES make sense if you read the rules, regardless of whether the way it works is intuitive (at first glance) or not.

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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Doji Yoshi » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:30 pm

Dare wrote:it could have and probably should have been worded clearer.
[..]
It DOES make sense if you read the rules, regardless of whether the way it works is intuitive (at first glance) or not.

And that's my point.
This should be clearer. If over half the player population that was verbal about it online were convinced that Toturi and Hotaru DO WORK ON DEFENSE, then there's a problem.
I merely pointed out how it could be interpreted.
You claim that it was clear. I understand that it could be clear for you, but I'm not debating what you think in your own head.
I'm claiming that it wasn't clear to the larger group, and could still be ruled that they do work, unless the cards receive errata.


So at no point are you conflicting with the rules.

Except that you are. Hotaru says you can resolve a ring's effects after claiming a ring. On defense that's very much conflicting of the rules.
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Dare » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:04 am

Doji Yoshi wrote:

So at no point are you conflicting with the rules.

Except that you are. Hotaru says you can resolve a ring's effects after claiming a ring. On defense that's very much conflicting of the rules.


That's also "conflicting" with the rules on attack, you don't ever, as part of the rulebook, resolve the ring AFTER claiming it.

It's about equivalent to saying that the jade rule applies to the Crane stronghold. Because you can't just bow someone without a card ability.

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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Doji Yoshi » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:24 am

Dare wrote:
Doji Yoshi wrote:

So at no point are you conflicting with the rules.

Except that you are. Hotaru says you can resolve a ring's effects after claiming a ring. On defense that's very much conflicting of the rules.


That's also "conflicting" with the rules on attack, you don't ever, as part of the rulebook, resolve the ring AFTER claiming it.

It's about equivalent to saying that the jade rule applies to the Crane stronghold. Because you can't just bow someone without a card ability.

I'm confused. You say at no point are you conflicting with the rules and then you say that it is also conflicting with the rules on attack.

The Crane Stronghold is fine. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
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