Topic: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes (Read 11692 times)

Hotaru · « **Reply #120 on:** October 25, 2011, 10:57:35 PM »

Quote from: Himoto on October 25, 2011, 10:34:35 PM

A support strategy is something that you throw a handful of cards for into your deck because they compliment your primary game strategy well, not something you dedicate a great deal of deck design space to.

While yes, dueling currently feels like more of a victory condition and less a support strategy, it is not a victory condition nor should it feel like it is. Thus, the changes and down-tone. Without Hamstrung and a sizable chunk of honor from Impromptu Duel upon refusal, it would simply be a means for defending yourself while you gain honor through other means. I don't expect to see Hamstrung reprinted and it wouldn't surprise me if Impromptu Duel was MRP'd with reduced honor gains, which would bring dueling back to the core of being control support strategy.

Shibahomer · « **Reply #121 on:** October 26, 2011, 03:10:28 AM »

Quote from: Himoto on October 25, 2011, 10:34:35 PM

No, a support strategy is something you use to help your main strategy along. Not the biggest focus of your deck or its primary way of reaching its victory condition.

A support strategy is something that you throw a handful of cards for into your deck because they compliment your primary game strategy well, not something you dedicate a great deal of deck design space to.

Please enlighten me as to what a main strategy would look like? and why something that can decide the outcome of a whole battle (in fiction and the RPG) shouldn't be one? With dueling having its very own SH and with three clans having it as a theme I'm not sure why you think it should be "something you throw a handful of cards" at.

Doji Shikimi · « **Reply #122 on:** October 26, 2011, 05:45:45 AM »

The whole deck is build with a restriction, but dueling doesn't say include card x to win a duel. The deck just has a limited cardpool, just like every other strategy out there. You won't add spells in a non-shugenja deck. You won't add honor losses in a honor run deck. You won't put.... you get the clue. Every deck has restrictions. For a duel deck these restrictions are less about the card and more about the fv. While it's just like other decks, it does remove more cards from being playable, that would have seen play if it didn't have fv 1 or 2. That's why people say dueling restrict deck construction more, because you start by looking at your cards and as soon as you see 1, you throw it away, if it has 2 and is a very good card you might consider it, if it's a 3, it has to be very good and a 4 is included even if it's a weaker version of a 1 or 2 fv card.

There are plenty of people who take the risk and go for only useful cards, but a lot don't want to risk it.

I don't think dueling is weaker or stronger than CE in EE. The game has changed. The way dueling works has changed. I just don't see a real use to dueling. Unlike in the past where you would not focus the 1 or 2 in your focus pool (you start focusing, so the chances are bigger that if you don't focus that 1 or 2, you'd still win or at least tie most of the time), they now just drift up at the wrong time and kill your guy. The other thing is, focus effects are now very random. In the past I would win my duel and get honor, cards or other things to make it worth it more than a normal action. We can add the list again with unit kill cards, bow and dishonor tech that is also very good, the refusable stuff and all, but most duels don't kill and two of the duels going into EE kills. We have Hakuseki (only adding cranes here, if dragon and phoenix have one, they probably won't be played by cranes, just like how the non-human kill won't be played by the same deck as the scout kill and thus can't be named in the same sentence)who needs a dishonored personality to kill it and we have sword for hire.

There is already a big list of cards that either destroy cards really easy or destroy units/cards with attached cards really easy. I don't see dueling being the big hancho this time around. I see it as a rather weak mechanic with not enough power. It might all get better as soon as we see the reprints. Everyone is always either in favor of dueling or against it, but I have never seen a real compelling reason why dueling has to be nerfed. It's strong, but more decks than you realize can actually make our too big risk to take turn into a lost personality. Cards like Embassy and hamstrung changed it a lot, increasing tempo and consistency. Also if I don't have to risk challenging your +2chi personality, it's going to be a boring no chance to lose duel, but if I need to kill that +2chi dude, the risk of losing will be bigger and without embassy, there would be a small chance of winning.

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI · « **Reply #123 on:** October 26, 2011, 06:15:34 AM »

Quote

The whole deck is build with a restriction, but dueling doesn't say include card x to win a duel. The deck just has a limited cardpool, just like every other strategy out there. You won't add spells in a non-shugenja deck. You won't add honor losses in a honor run deck. You won't put.... you get the clue. Every deck has restrictions. For a duel deck these restrictions are less about the card and more about the fv.

No it's actually both.

In my commander deck, for example, I would run the cards that are obviously specific to tthe commander theme. But then with the other card slots, you have to make choices. In a commander deck (as an example) I could run more kill (despite having as much kill as duelling) that has low FVs, such as Final Duty. I could run BETTER utility cards (Unpredictable Strategy, Inexorable Defeat, etc).

In the duelling deck you build roughly the same way. You build the core deck, and then around that you have the other actions, the "utility" actions. But whereas ANY non-duelling deck can take its utility actions from the ENTIRE CARDPOOL of utility actions, duelling is not only restricted in that it needs to take some of them, but that it then can only pick from the 4 (and 3 in some cases) focus value ones. I would by FAR prefer to run Superior Mobility over The Slow Death for straighten tech, but only non-duelling decks get to do that.

Quote

just like how the non-human kill won't be played by the same deck as the scout kill and thus can't be named in the same sentence)

Pokku, Gutobo, Mokku etcetc would love a word with you.

But it's not about cross themes (OMG MY DUELLING DECK CAN'T RUN THAT SHADOWLANDS CARD), it's about the viability of the NON-specific themed cards.

Kakita Kasukaru · « **Reply #124 on:** October 26, 2011, 06:20:50 AM »

Quote from: Doji MeanGirl on October 26, 2011, 06:15:34 AM

Quote
just like how the non-human kill won't be played by the same deck as the scout kill and thus can't be named in the same sentence)
Pokku, Gutobo, Mokku etcetc would love a word with you.

True that... And there is also a whole Crab deck concept which works precisely with scout and non-human kills. Out of Kyuden Hida Xp.

This said, if the example was poorly chosen, the idea is correct I think. Duelling is not a victory condition, obviously, but it tends to determine the entirety of the deck in a way that only victory conditions usually do.

coaster · « **Reply #125 on:** October 26, 2011, 03:53:30 PM »

Let's go back to IE "focus from hand" and reprint RoV as IE. Problems solved... Wait, cards are probably already printed and cooled off by now.

Quote from: Doji Tsundoku on October 24, 2011, 01:50:03 AM

"With these changes to dueling ... making dueling a more enjoyable experience to non-dueling decks".

I look forward to the changes that will make being dishonoured a more enjoyable experience for non-dishonour decks, losing provinces a more enjoyable experience for non-military decks, etc.

I look forward to changes making your NPE my happiness!

Hotaru · « **Reply #126 on:** October 26, 2011, 03:55:27 PM »

Quote from: kolat (in blue pajamas) on October 26, 2011, 03:53:30 PM

Let's go back to IE "focus from hand" and reprint RoV as IE.

No, let's no go there. That's a silly place.

Kwanshu · « **Reply #127 on:** October 26, 2011, 04:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Hotaru on October 26, 2011, 03:55:27 PM

Quote from: kolat (in blue pajamas) on October 26, 2011, 03:53:30 PM
Let's go back to IE "focus from hand" and reprint RoV as IE.

No, let's no go there. That's a silly place.

Lies, Lies, Lies!

coaster · « **Reply #128 on:** October 26, 2011, 04:06:09 PM »

Quote from: Moshi Kwanshu on October 26, 2011, 04:02:54 PM

Quote from: Hotaru on October 26, 2011, 03:55:27 PM
Quote from: kolat (in blue pajamas) on October 26, 2011, 03:53:30 PM
Let's go back to IE "focus from hand" and reprint RoV as IE.

No, let's no go there. That's a silly place.

Lies, Lies, Lies!

I do hope that card was not reprinted...

Focus from hand allowed almost EVERYONE to pack a few duels (if wished). It allowed us to not have to restrict the way we built our entire fate deck. Think about it... The way it was, it was a BIG risk to duel away the hand but could pay off big at times. This mechanic would make you think long and hard about if and when to duel. The way it should be when one thinks about what a duel really is, calling one out with the risk of getting owed oneself. In fact, the duel was a more respectful and serious part of the game when it was this way. It was more suspenseful and honestly, more enjoyable!

slacks · « **Reply #129 on:** October 26, 2011, 11:40:51 PM »

I would have gone for ranged attacks at chi, but I tend to like my rules streamlined.

SpookyElectric · « **Reply #130 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:19:24 AM »

Focusing purely from the hand was an awful mechanic that I was glad to see go. Focusing purely from the hand was only enjoyable for the guy with Smoke and Mirrors, a Double-Chi personality, a way to draw cards immediately after the duel, or a hand full of crap. Even without those elements, it was either crippling or inconsequential, with virtually no in-between. And maybe this was just my playgroup, but I seem to recall duels being extremely plentiful and no more or less "respectful" than they are now, and granted no more or less "freedom" in deck-building (that which they did was purely artificial), only back then they also punished the hand. And focusing from the hand is no less suspenseful than focusing from the top of the deck or from a focus pool.

This whole "focus pool" thing wasn't done on a whim, it was absolutely needed for the game. No way should we go back to the previous dueling era of diamond and earlier. Ever.

Hotaru · « **Reply #131 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:27:28 AM »

Quote from: SpookyElectric on October 27, 2011, 08:19:24 AM

This whole "focus pool" thing wasn't done on a whim, it was absolutely needed for the game. No way should we go back to the previous dueling era of diamond and earlier. Ever.

Speaking as someone who "abused" the snot out of dueling in the Gold and Diamond eras, I'm in total agreeance with this. There's simply no excitement to duels when you're challenging someone 7 chi lower than your double chi personality. Will starting up 7 be possible in EE? Chances are, yes, but a whole lot rarer of an occurrence than it used to be.

Same Kaeru · « **Reply #132 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:50:28 AM »

I honestly hope that we don't see a 7C personality in EE, and that 6C and even 5C are limited only to power uniques (that aren't kensai). I understand why my non-experienced, non-unique duelist should not take it lightly to challenge a unique, experienced personality, but if too many random guys are running around with 5C while the vast majority of duelists are limited to only 4C, dueling will have trouble.

Hotaru · « **Reply #133 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:59:59 AM »

I figure it will stay generally the same as it has through CE, with a slight bump in average on duelists to account for the new rules.

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI · « **Reply #134 on:** October 27, 2011, 09:37:22 AM »

Quote from: Same Kaeru on October 27, 2011, 08:50:28 AM

I honestly hope that we don't see a 7C personality in EE, and that 6C and even 5C are limited only to power uniques (that aren't kensai). I understand why my non-experienced, non-unique duelist should not take it lightly to challenge a unique, experienced personality, but if too many random guys are running around with 5C while the vast majority of duelists are limited to only 4C, dueling will have trouble.

Except if duelists are all limited to like 4 chi, all you need is a kensai with 1-2 weapons to be completely invincible.

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Author Topic: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes (Read 11692 times)

coaster

coaster