Topic: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes (Read 12125 times)

Doji Yoshi · « **on:** October 24, 2011, 01:14:52 AM »

As posted on the AEG front page there are some new rules for L5R in EE.

http://www.l5r.com/news/emperor-edition-design-diaries-new-rules/

Warning: If you are thinking of having an outbreak of magical samurai nerd rage in this thread; don't. - Chikao

Faris Kalin · « **Reply #1 on:** October 24, 2011, 01:22:47 AM »

The other dueling changes are fine, but I really hate the loss of duelists getting to focus first. I really believe that Hideo can take out that random shugenja even if said shugenja has 5 chi. I really, really hate that change.

Also, what's the point of seppuku now that it doesn't lower honor loss? Since my opponent can probably dishonor most of my field between various card effects, why would I ever bother killing off my personality when he can just target another of my personalities if he needs a dishonorable target.

The overlay change puzzles me as well. Since I don't get to keep the underlying abilities, that makes things less interesting. Plus, it also gives less reason to overlay. Was it really that complicated?

Also, they say that honor is getting military stuff to combat dishonor, but IDK, my Cranes don't have a lot of force. Then there is the Kitsune honor deck where the bear is the best force it has.

Enlightened Courtier · « **Reply #2 on:** October 24, 2011, 01:36:48 AM »

The overlay changes are disappointing. What's the point for the phoenix stronghold for henshin?

Kakita Zekkouken · « **Reply #3 on:** October 24, 2011, 01:41:19 AM »

Quote from: Enlightened Courtier on October 24, 2011, 01:36:48 AM

The overlay changes are disappointing. What's the point for the phoenix stronghold for henshin?

Keeping your big guns in play by sacrificing boxables?

Doji Tsundoku · « **Reply #4 on:** October 24, 2011, 01:50:03 AM »

"With these changes to dueling ... making dueling a more enjoyable experience to non-dueling decks".

I look forward to the changes that will make being dishonoured a more enjoyable experience for non-dishonour decks, losing provinces a more enjoyable experience for non-military decks, etc.

Kakita Ookami · « **Reply #5 on:** October 24, 2011, 01:54:54 AM »

Dueling changes are lame.
I like the conqueror mechanic, and the new rules for bringing people into play.
Dishonor wins at end of turn? Thats mega lame!
But I guess the changes are necessary...

Asahina Shimato · « **Reply #6 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:03:07 AM »

Wow, that is a lot to digest. The article suggests that honor decks will be beaten by dishonor decks unless they switch to military.

Given the Force of our courtiers so far, that seems like quite the feat. They promise we will get the tools to switch, so I'm really curious how our courtiers will do that.

Kwek · « **Reply #7 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:12:52 AM »

Quote from: Asahina Shimato on October 24, 2011, 02:03:07 AM

Wow, that is a lot to digest. The article suggests that honor decks will be beaten by dishonor decks unless they switch to military.

Given the Force of our courtiers so far, that seems like quite the feat. They promise we will get the tools to switch, so I'm really curious how our courtiers will do that.

and usually those tools are rarely good against military.

Doji Yoshi · « **Reply #8 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:21:13 AM »

Mechanically, I understand all the changes for the CCG -life of the game-.

However, there are numerous flaws in the current game (CE) to compare to EE.
Too many personalities have high chi.
From a storyline perspective, Hideo basic SHOULD be able to out duel any non-duelist in a Iaijutsu-style duel.
It's not ikebana, or other stuff.. it's Iaijutsu.

"..In Lotus Edition, this was abused to unprecedented levels where Focus Effects often times would get you a significant part of the way to your victory condition, be it through honor gains or card draw."

Sure, there's some history to dueling, but why give us Lotus? What about Gold Edition when we had poison weapon and blackened claws or Diamond Edition when we had double chi and all sorts of odd dueling effects?

I think we are getting a duelist nerf.. and it sounds like it's because of some sort of residual affect from Lotus.
Awesome.

Well, regardless, we still will have to wait and see what's coming.
Rules don't mean much without an EE card reference, right?

Doji Shikimi · « **Reply #9 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:23:09 AM »

Dueling changes were around the corner. We actually knew it when we started getting only 4chi personalities with the duelist trait. For the outcome of the duel, nothing has changed for equal dueling, lower chi vs higher chi is now impossible to issue, but higher is no longer a disadvantage. And we now have a better chance of actually winning the duel without Embassy. Say we focus the same fv, we would in the past lose to that, but now we would just win the duel. And cards to see the top of your deck will be more important.

It's hard to say how this will end up, we will just have to wait and see.

Dishonor change is good. At least going back above -20 won't save you. Honor always felt as the worst of the win conditions, even though it was easier to build, the others with their instant win felt like robbing people of their win (enlightenment more than dishonor).

Seppuku changes are a bit strange and I'm already hearing the monks starting to run down from their mountains. The shugenja are really now more powerful than monks. That aside, I'm not sure if this will work like it should. Are we going to see enough dishonor tricks to at least push them under? Will dishonor also military out most of the time? At least Munemori will find it's spot in our dishonor decks. You will not seppuku.

I really don't see either our courtiers or shugenja picking up arms and attack so fast. The tools they mention sound nice, but I hope those will check base honor or rehonor before adding force. But it can never be balanced for both samurai and courtiers. Let's say a lion samurai attacks with a 4ph personality, let's say they still suffer from bad force, he's 3f. He attacks, 7f. Our courtier, let's pick something between everything, that's 1f, add 4 (most of our courtiers have 3, but a few 4's make a big difference of course), that's 5f. The lion is close to crushing or already crushing the province, the courtier would need a lot of help. Adding second city to the mix, would make our courtier 6f. Just not enough. I don't see cranes attacking dishonor decks, who are already dedicated to crushing military decks.

And the thing DT seems to forget a lot, some clans ignore HR. While it's fun to cause scaling honor losses, to prevent some clans from escaping, this might bring a big problem for clans, like crane and lion, who have 3+ph on their guys and 6+ hr. Say, I play 2 guys in 2 turns for full, that's +8 honor, 14. Now I didn't play 2 guys, I played 4. He makes 3 lose their base honor, that's -11 honor, putting me at 3. Now I have to pay more for a personality who costs more for his ph, who will hurt me more when his next action hits me. I understand that the non-honor crabs are just easier to deal with, they also have less problems going below 0 (exceptions are everywhere, either at least 0hr crabs or 0hr cranes).

I hope in the end everything will be balanced out, but I'm thinking it will be a rough path to get there and I hope we won't have to suffer a lot for that.

Asahina Timaru · « **Reply #10 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:32:48 AM »

Sooo, going through them one by one:

Quote

Dragon does not start with the favor

OK. Expected.

Quote

Death from 0 chi will not be negated

OK. Nothing major.

Quote

Required targeting is now listed in the constraints block

OK. Helpful.

Quote

The focus pool is going away, being replaced by the ability to, four times per duel, focus from your hand or from the top of your deck (without looking at it first if from your deck).

Hmm. Not liking it. Focus effects become completely random unless you deplete your hand. Duels become even more dangerous for the dueling player (unless he builds an all-4FV-deck again or depletes his hand). Those duels better have really good rewards for the risk involved.

Quote

Now a duelist will win ties against non-duelist personalities and, once per duel, before focus effects resolve, may discard one of their focused cards and focus a different card instead.

Not really clear on this change. So, if I challenge an equal Chi peep And he immediately strikes I win? If so, cool. As for the second part, where does the new card come from? Hand? Top of deck? Either? I am going to miss to be able to challenge higher chi peeps, but hopefully we'll gett higher chi duelists for EE to make up for that.

Quote

The Conqueror keyword is going to mostly be the domain of the Spider, though it may appear in other clans as well. It is a rule book ability which will allow you to, once per turn, straighten a unit after a battle resolution has ended, much like the card Spearhead.

Huh. Also not really clear. Can every Conqueror straighten his unit? Only one unit per attacking army with a Conqueror in it? Non-Conqueror units? t is a very good rulebook effect for a keyword that's basically single-clan.

Quote

Melee Attacks

OK. Expected.

Quote

Seppuku

It's great that Shugenja are finally able to do it, but... is it really worth it any more? Without the honor loss reduction, who cares?
You are supposed to switch to military against dishonor, so killing off your peeps looks kind of counterproductive.

Quote

Equip

Great. Spells are finally becoming useful outside Phoenix.

Quote

Proclaim

The change itself is okay. I just wish it wouldn't check base honor. The way it is it just neutered the only good spell for Air honor decks (Wind of the Moon)

Quote

Clan Discount and Ignoring Honor Requirements

OK.

Quote

Creating units for Rule of Presence and Location

OK.

Quote

Overlaying

Hmm. I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it's a bad chage.

Quote

Dishonor and Enlightenment

I like the change. Fair, if you consider that honor always had to survive that extra turn.

Quote

Keywords on abilities don’t move up

Good. That got me confused a few times.

Quote

Events, Reactions

Both OK.

Quote

Stronghold Immunity

Hmm. Depending on what cards are in the environment, this could be good or very, very bad.

Quote

dishonor match up, both versus honor decks as well as versus high personal honor and low personal honor decks

I'm so not sold on this one. Switching to military with force boost based on personal honor may be great for the Military/Honor decks
(Paragons, Magistrates) but will be spectacularly useless out of the defensive honor decks. If all your peeps have 0-2 Force no
PH-based force boost will be able to make you enough of the threat to a dishonor deck that already has to be equipped to deal with
a real Military deck.

Kakita Kasukaru · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:36:02 AM »

Already posted my comments on AEG's forum, so laziness and copy/pasting...

I am quite happy with most of it. This said:

Duelling: Being unable to kill a Kuon with a Hideo basic will be a bit annoying, but I don't mind that much. After all, Clan Champions are supposed to have at least some basic duelling skills.

Proclaim (and rules about getting peeps in to play in general): I don't like it that much. The new rules look like they are making it harder for honor decks vs military ones. Basically, it will get easier for military decks to will, civility, etc. peeps into play, while proclaim being a reaction could make it a target for anti-honor meta jank. Also, as mentioned, it makes Wind of the Moon a quasi coaster (I can't see why anyone would play it). Anyway, we need to see the new cards and test the new interactions but I am sceptical.

Honor vs. Dishonor: While I am happy that these won't go to time any more, I am less happy about forcing honor decks to switch. I understand that they will get cards based on base PH to do so, but I am also very sceptical of any honor deck being able to switch against a dishonor defensive deck, which should in principle be able to withhold the assaults of much more aggressive decks. And if that is made possible (by foce boosts, for instance), why would honor decks simply not crush military decks using the same military tricks then? Again, not complaining here, just very curious to see how it is going to be implemented.

Asahina Shimato · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:43:08 AM »

Re: Seppuku:

Quote

The ability will now allow you to, as an Open action any number of times per turn, rehonor and destroy your dishonorable personality.

I really would like to know if destruction of your personality is a cost or an effect.

Kakita Kasukaru · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:46:56 AM »

I suspect this will only be an effect.

Doji Yoshi · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:49:29 AM »

I 'think' Conquerer is supposed to work like this:

Each player has the ability:
Once per turn, straighten one of your units led by a personality with the conquerer keyword.

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Author Topic: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes (Read 12125 times)