Topic: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes (Read 11736 times)

Doji Hatashai · « **Reply #135 on:** October 27, 2011, 10:04:19 AM »

Quote from: Doji MeanGirl on October 27, 2011, 09:37:22 AM

Except if duelists are all limited to like 4 chi, all you need is a kensai with 1-2 weapons to be completely invincible.

There are chi pumps in the game like the magistrate card "Spirit of Truth". Also remember with this system, focus values are going to play a big role. I'm very interested in the pattern that will develop regarding the new dueling rules. We could, technically, get Hakuseki up to Noritoshi range through fate cards, similar to Kensai getting there through weapons. I really think we need a 5 chi non-unique.

What i'm really concerned with is how awesome the actions are on the Kensai weapons, as the Spirit of the Truth isn't very... militaristic.

Same Kaeru · « **Reply #136 on:** October 27, 2011, 10:07:10 AM »

Quote from: Doji MeanGirl on October 27, 2011, 09:37:22 AM

Quote from: Same Kaeru on October 27, 2011, 08:50:28 AM
[...] but if too many random [...] while the vast majority of duelists [...].

Except if duelists are all limited to like 4 chi, all you need is a kensai with 1-2 weapons to be completely invincible.

Did I say something unclear?

I actually expect the average kensai to be 3C, so if the average duelist is 4C then a duelist with a weapon should be able to take down a kensai with two weapons, all else being equal. Carrying the sword is something we might need if we also wanted to duel that odd 5C unique that will likely be in every deck.

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI · « **Reply #137 on:** October 27, 2011, 10:10:53 AM »

Quote from: Same Kaeru on October 27, 2011, 10:07:10 AM

Quote from: Doji MeanGirl on October 27, 2011, 09:37:22 AM
Quote from: Same Kaeru on October 27, 2011, 08:50:28 AM
[...] but if too many random [...] while the vast majority of duelists [...].

Except if duelists are all limited to like 4 chi, all you need is a kensai with 1-2 weapons to be completely invincible.
Did I say something unclear?

I actually expect the average kensai to be 3C, so if the average duelist is 4C then a duelist with a weapon should be able to take down a kensai with two weapons, all else being equal. Carrying the sword is something we might need if we also wanted to duel that odd 5C unique that will likely be in every deck.

5 out of the 12 currently EE legal kensai are 4 chi or higher, with I think only 1 of those being a unique.

jwindu · « **Reply #138 on:** October 27, 2011, 01:05:18 PM »

Quote from: Doji MeanGirl on October 27, 2011, 10:10:53 AM

Quote from: Same Kaeru on October 27, 2011, 10:07:10 AM
Quote from: Doji MeanGirl on October 27, 2011, 09:37:22 AM
Quote from: Same Kaeru on October 27, 2011, 08:50:28 AM
[...] but if too many random [...] while the vast majority of duelists [...].

Except if duelists are all limited to like 4 chi, all you need is a kensai with 1-2 weapons to be completely invincible.
Did I say something unclear?

I actually expect the average kensai to be 3C, so if the average duelist is 4C then a duelist with a weapon should be able to take down a kensai with two weapons, all else being equal. Carrying the sword is something we might need if we also wanted to duel that odd 5C unique that will likely be in every deck.

5 out of the 12 currently EE legal kensai are 4 chi or higher, with I think only 1 of those being a unique.

So when you run into a Scorpion kensai use your bigger chi duelists? Or possibly run Spirit of the Truth? And weapons with +1 chi and other great effects? All other kensais are easily manageable with a single weapon on your personality, doubly so if it's Omigawa. Kuronada being an exception, but don't challenge Kuronada to a duel with a chump.

Kensai decks run and will continue to run Cursed Relics which not only have a 0 Chi but dig you into a chi hole to kill things. It's kill effects are too good, especially when combined with Again! even more so since kensai really don't care about chi other than the fact it limits how many times per turn we can use that amazing weapon to cut you into pieces.

I would think about how many awesome slots not having to pack nothing but 4's and nothing but focus effects in your decks is gonna open up for you to run power cards that trigger off Samurai and Magistrate, both of which have RIDICULOUSLY amazing card support. Dueling will be something you have in as an extra to add to all that. Most decks won't be able to compete, and the fact that now you can pitch a bad focus card and replace it, it allows for less deck strain in the building process. Who cares that you can't duel one or two power personalities when you drop Shameful Death smack down all over their face? Or if you can't deal with them cards like Wanted for Questioning takes care of anyone whom you might have problems.

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI · « **Reply #139 on:** October 27, 2011, 01:51:29 PM »

Quote

So when you run into a Scorpion kensai use your bigger chi duelists?

We have a single unique that is more than 4 chi right now.

The rest of your post makes some awful assumptions. First off, putting weapons in an honour deck has several issues, especially considering the cost of the good weapons currently. The Spirit of cards might be played until the first expansions hits, they're bad at the moment, and they'll be bad once we get a bit of card pool as well. Shameful Death is a bad card.

And the insinuation that our deck isn't constricted by duelling is silly. Whereas before we could run duels as our means of control, and then honour gaining cards outside of it, we need to run duelling, cards to ensure we can duel by your own words (Spirit of, weapons etc), and THEN we can add cards that actually gain us honour. Then add to that the fact that our personality base is now more restricted, as rather than low chi duelists being better (and cheaper), we need the higher chi duelists that have more cost attached.

I'm not at all suggesting that duelling is going to be in any way bad. But the change is a massive change mechanically, and it WILL cause issues against kensai and other high chi clans.

Same Kaeru · « **Reply #140 on:** October 27, 2011, 02:30:26 PM »

Without looking back at our themes, I'm hoping that the deck that duels will want weapons to make switching to military against the several dishonor decks easier, as well as when defending against kensai, monks and magistrates. Of course if we get Impromptu back I'd expect most if not all of our honor decks to duel.

Hero123 · « **Reply #141 on:** October 27, 2011, 02:35:00 PM »

i think that the balance with kensai kinda works. every theme needs something to beat it, for example, in a very general way, berserkers beat everything except duelists, duelists beat everything except kensai(with decent chi and 2 weapons) etc. if it ends up going around all the themes until every theme has at least 1 weakness then i think it is a good design.

if not, just run more attachment hate?

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI · « **Reply #142 on:** October 27, 2011, 03:05:45 PM »

Quote from: Hero123 on October 27, 2011, 02:35:00 PM

i think that the balance with kensai kinda works. every theme needs something to beat it, for example, in a very general way, berserkers beat everything except duelists, duelists beat everything except kensai(with decent chi and 2 weapons) etc. if it ends up going around all the themes until every theme has at least 1 weakness then i think it is a good design.

No, that's actually a terrible design. Paper/Rock/Scissors is the worst way to balance a tournament game like this. Because then a large part of events becomes luck based on what matchups you drew. There will naturally always be good and bad matchups for a deck, and that is right and proper, but having a design where X>Y>Z>X might LOOK balanced on paper, but makes for extremely negative tournaments. No deck should beat "everything except for..." either. A balanced environment (and one I'm optimistic the designers CAN create incidentally) would have a field where anyone can beat anyone, but some matches are tougher than others.

Paper/Rock/Scissors in a 1v1 type tournament of anything can't work. It can work in multiplayer style things (think PVP in MMOs) because you can have a teammate offset your weaknesses with their strengths. But you don't want to go 4-3 simply because, as an example, you faced 3 kensai decks, and 4 beserker decks (an extreme example I know).

Kakita Kaezin · « **Reply #143 on:** October 27, 2011, 03:15:09 PM »

Quote from: Hero123 on October 27, 2011, 02:35:00 PM

i think that the balance with kensai kinda works. every theme needs something to beat it, for example, in a very general way, berserkers beat everything except duelists, duelists beat everything except kensai(with decent chi and 2 weapons) etc. if it ends up going around all the themes until every theme has at least 1 weakness then i think it is a good design.

if not, just run more attachment hate?

Besides which, this wouldn't fix anything. The kensei would just run duels as well (unless all duel initiators were restricted to requiring you to target a duelist to start them) and bully duel everyone with their large Chi (when equipped).

The pony person is right, Rock/Paper/Scissors is a bad balancing mechanism for this game and wouldn't work.

Hotaru · « **Reply #144 on:** October 27, 2011, 04:01:44 PM »

There was already a rock, paper, scissors period in pre-Gold, with something like Darkest Magics, Abandoning the Fortunes out of Dark Path of Shadow, and Spirit blitz. I don't remember the exact hierarchy, but they beat everything else. (Someone who remembers that period better feel free to add any corrections.

)

Edit: Spirit Blitz beat Bloodspeaker Military beat Faceless Ninja Dishonor beat Spirit Blitz, and the all rolled over the rest of the field.

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI · « **Reply #145 on:** October 27, 2011, 04:06:30 PM »

There was also a skirting with it in the first half of CE. It's speaks of sub-par design and is a bad balance philosophy. Without having ever spoken to him about it, I could say with 95% certainty BReese has no intention of creating Paper Rock Scissor environments.

coaster · « **Reply #146 on:** October 27, 2011, 05:36:19 PM »

Quote from: Hotaru on October 27, 2011, 08:27:28 AM

Quote from: SpookyElectric on October 27, 2011, 08:19:24 AM
This whole "focus pool" thing wasn't done on a whim, it was absolutely needed for the game. No way should we go back to the previous dueling era of diamond and earlier. Ever.

Speaking as someone who "abused" the snot out of dueling in the Gold and Diamond eras, I'm in total agreeance with this. There's simply no excitement to duels when you're challenging someone 7 chi lower than your double chi personality. Will starting up 7 be possible in EE? Chances are, yes, but a whole lot rarer of an occurrence than it used to be.

I would agree that having too many copies of Toshimoko on the board might be a bad thing. Although I am a fan of Quinton Hoover!

I will admit I did run x3 Iaijutsu Duel and x3 Art with Reju base when we first saw him in C&J, along with Kharmic. That is what I call abuse.

Quote from: Hotaru on October 27, 2011, 04:01:44 PM

There was already a rock, paper, scissors period in pre-Gold, with something like Darkest Magics, Abandoning the Fortunes out of Dark Path of Shadow, and Spirit blitz. I don't remember the exact hierarchy, but they beat everything else. (Someone who remembers that period better feel free to add any corrections. )

Edit: Spirit Blitz beat Bloodspeaker Military beat Faceless Ninja Dishonor beat Spirit Blitz, and the all rolled over the rest of the field.

That's right.

The So-broken, Abandon, Jama triangle of doom!

Hero123 · « **Reply #147 on:** October 27, 2011, 06:30:19 PM »

@ meangirl-Personally i like rock paper scissors.

isn't the idea of rock paper scissors EXACTLY what is happening with honor vs dishonor match up? they are going to design it so that military>dishonor>honor or something similar right? at least that's what i understood by the whole idea that honor decks will have to go military to fight dishonor......

the idea that of rock paper scissors with themes is just how it is going to work. if there weren't a set of checks and balances then nothing in the entire game would work because everyone would play the same deck.

The biggest flaw in comparing L5R to rock, paper, scissors is that L5R is so much more complex and it is never a 100% chance that rock will indeed beat scissors, etc. Switch decks, meta and creativity are the key to overcoming rock paper and scissors design.

Thinking that there can be a theme that has no weakness is probably just wishful thinking. I also think that there is no problem with the idea of R.P.S. because L5R is not a 2 dimensional game. there are more than 3 choices. fights between opposite spectrum will result in fun and unique games. but w/e.

Saisho wa gu.... jun ken PO!

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI · « **Reply #148 on:** October 27, 2011, 06:52:32 PM »

Quote

isn't the idea of rock paper scissors EXACTLY what is happening with honor vs dishonor match up? they are going to design it so that military>dishonor>honor or something similar right? at least that's what i understood by the whole idea that honor decks will have to go military to fight dishonor......

Erm, no? Honour decks will have to go military to beat dishonour because of the way it's designed. That doesn't mean that dishonour will lose to military 90% of the time etc in your little flowchart there. If the environment revolved around military > dishonour > honour > military then the game would be awful. I don't know how to explain that in a simpler way than what I already did, or why you don't understand why that is bad design if it were to be the case.

Quote

The biggest flaw in comparing L5R to rock, paper, scissors is that L5R is so much more complex and it is never a 100% chance that rock will indeed beat scissors, etc. Switch decks, meta and creativity are the key to overcoming rock paper and scissors design.

No the key to overcome rock/paper/scissors design is to never design as such. If you read my post properly, you'd have also read this:

Quote

A balanced environment (and one I'm optimistic the designers CAN create incidentally) would have a field where anyone can beat anyone, but some matches are tougher than others.

and this:

Quote

There will naturally always be good and bad matchups for a deck, and that is right and proper,

Having better and worse matchups WILL happen regardless, and THAT is what meta and creativity is for, to balance your deck so that you bad matchups are winnable, and finding the balance that doesn't mess up your good matchups too much by diluting your card pool.

In an environment where honour always beats military, military always beats dishonour, and dishonour always beats honour (let's say 95% win rates in decks where all 3 have zero meta), why would you ever want to play? Because you know there is almost NO chance of winning that paper to your rock. Bringing as many of the matchups as possible within the 60/40 range means that it comes down to who is the better player far more than who gets lucky with the matchups.

Quote

the idea that of rock paper scissors with themes is just how it is going to work. if there weren't a set of checks and balances then nothing in the entire game would work because everyone would play the same deck.

I don't think you understand the whole design process of L5R. If every decktype could beat every other decktype, you would have the exact OPPOSITE of everyone playing the same deck. If, for example, Asahina Honour, Magistrate Switch and Scout Military could all compete within a 60/40 range against the entire field, then you can play whichever you prefer and enjoy the most. If you have a paper rock scissor design, it could be the only one of those 3 that could beat a field (for example, I'm making up the example) of 70% dishonour players was Magistrate Switch. So if you suspect or the metagame creates a 70% dishonour field, EVERY competent player would play Magistrate Switch with an 80% win rate as opposed to the other 2 which might only have a 30% win rate.

Paper Rock Scissors pushes everyone to playing the same deck, if a strong balance is achieved across all themes, it diversifies the field far more, and allows people to compete with what they want to without having to assess auto-loss matchups.

Hero123 · « **Reply #149 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:02:08 PM »

@-meangirl

the biggest problem here is a miscommunication of what rock paper scissors means to you and me. sorry for any miscommunication but my meaning is rock paper scissors is good in that it means that there are strong match ups and weak match ups. I in NO WAY think that autowins and autolosses are the way to go in L5R. I think if you reread my posts with that in mind you will see that my ideas have been misunderstood.

your arguments vs mine are like looking at different sides on the same coin. your talking about strengths of a deck and im talking about weakness. we are arguing the same point from 2 different perspectives. I see what your saying though. just keep in mind that you were the first to bring up rock paper and scissors, i just tried to flow with it.

as for your comments about what i said, your straw man tactics of implying my meaning incorrectly would work if this weren't a forum where everything said is written(compare your comments to the first time you quote me to the second time you quote me. i'm clearly being misrepresented due to shotty quoting).i think i clearly state the same thing that you do in that The biggest flaw in comparing L5R to rock, paper, scissors is that L5R is so much more complex and it is never a 100% chance that rock will indeed beat scissors, etc. no one wants autolosses, but the other side of the the coin, no one wants 1 clearly superior deck. each deck needs to be weak to something or at the very least have a weakness. if that is kensai for dueling then great! if not then whatever, there will be a weakness somewhere.

also watch out cos your starting to fumble the ball a bit and miss the main point. we are talking about the new change with duelists rules and how duelist theme decks might have a harder time with kensai. All in all my point is simply, if kensai are a bad matchup for duelists with the new rules, so be it! it will make the game more interesting.

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Author Topic: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes (Read 11736 times)

coaster