Topic: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes (Read 11740 times)

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI · « **Reply #150 on:** October 27, 2011, 08:38:26 PM »

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also watch out cos your starting to fumble the ball a bit and miss the main point. we are talking about the new change with duelists rules and how duelist theme decks might have a harder time with kensai. All in all my point is simply, if kensai are a bad matchup for duelists with the new rules, so be it! it will make the game more interesting.

It won't be interesting at all though. Kensai are a bad matchup for duelling at the MOMENT because you have to duel from 2-3 chi down, and they can run plenty of high FV cards.

Depending on how the set design goes (nothing is absolute until we see how the field goes, the relative strength of kensai vs everything else etc), kensai in EE could shape up to be not a hard matchup, but an autoloss, due to potentially up to and/or over quarter of your fate deck being dead cards.

If a matchup is more likely to be 30/70, then it is no longer a case of "the better player won", it is a case of "the better player massively outplayed his opponent and still lost despite being far better". It happens in CE in a few (only a very samll few) matchups at the moment. And they have more options through various meta than is shaping up for Crane duelling of some variety to deal with kensai.

Of course if Kensai is a bad theme, then it's irrelevent, because you're not likely to face more than 0-1 at an event. If they're STRONG however, then it almost invalidates 1 of the tools that are a staple of Crane design.

For reference my earlier posts were never intended to be "OMG CRANE LOSE TO KENSAI CRYFACE". It was bringing up a point that remains no less valid that unless certain parts of the CE design philosophy regarding those 2 themes change, or Crane are given more options to deal with attachments/higher chi people/attaching their own stuff in a cost effective way, then there is a potential problem to show itself.

jwindu · « **Reply #151 on:** October 27, 2011, 10:36:57 PM »

Quote from: Doji MeanGirl on October 27, 2011, 01:51:29 PM

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So when you run into a Scorpion kensai use your bigger chi duelists?

We have a single unique that is more than 4 chi right now.

The rest of your post makes some awful assumptions. First off, putting weapons in an honour deck has several issues, especially considering the cost of the good weapons currently. The Spirit of cards might be played until the first expansions hits, they're bad at the moment, and they'll be bad once we get a bit of card pool as well. Shameful Death is a bad card.

And the insinuation that our deck isn't constricted by duelling is silly. Whereas before we could run duels as our means of control, and then honour gaining cards outside of it, we need to run duelling, cards to ensure we can duel by your own words (Spirit of, weapons etc), and THEN we can add cards that actually gain us honour. Then add to that the fact that our personality base is now more restricted, as rather than low chi duelists being better (and cheaper), we need the higher chi duelists that have more cost attached.

I'm not at all suggesting that duelling is going to be in any way bad. But the change is a massive change mechanically, and it WILL cause issues against kensai and other high chi clans.

I don't disagree that it will change the mechanics. But before you off offhandedly hate on Spirit of Truth, it permanently gives +1C and a 2ndary control ability that is useful when your duelist won't be able to bully duel a target. But it also sits at 4 FV. But if you are worried about other high chi decks boast your own chi. Otherwise just realize dueling will be like most other kill actions that have hoops to jump through, (card w/o attachments/lower chi/no followers/no weps/armor etc) and play around it. Run cards that are powerful for samurai and magistrates that you wouldn't have before because they have low FV's and just use bully dueling to control low chi guys. Obviously FV's will matter but tacticians played that dance all through CE and did fine with it.

As for cost of good weapons that applies double to kensai too, if they are running expensive weapons, there should be hoops you have to jump through to thrash them.

I do agree we are gonna be paying more for personalities with higher chi than we used to, but it seems gold costs have been creeping up all over the place.

I think dueling will still be powerful, and while just like tacticians will be a consideration for the deck, I think the change to the mechanic will mean our decks are less constricted by dueling than it used to be. Not to say we will run straight 1 and 2's but it will be less of an issue than before to have some powerful low focus value cards in the deck.

Doji Shikimi · « **Reply #152 on:** October 28, 2011, 02:49:14 AM »

As soon as you drop a few 2's and 3's in your discard pile more often then not, your opponent will just smoke you. Especially if they actually run high fv cards. If he starts focusing from his deck, you have 2 options, focus from your hand and he wins (lose the duel, win because we need actions in our hand), if you focus from the top, you will run into those 2's and 3's.

You can't rely on the duel mechanic too much. Either you lose with a mirror duel matchup or you will lose from a smart player who notices low fv's dropping into discard piles. IMHO the issue is bigger, not smaller, as before, you'd stop focusing when you only had 1's and 2's left in your focus pool, now you'll just focus them blind (look after deciding to focus from the top) and you end up eating your hand to replace one.

Dueling is not weak, but it's not stronger either. Maybe it will be in the long run. I'm not sure how everything will eventually work and maybe I'm just reading too much into these strategies that will never happen. But I don't think we can just assume it will all be good and add a few 1's and 2's to our deck so easily. The question will be how to balance it all.

And this new seppuku, I just can't figure out how to use it.

Mirith · « **Reply #153 on:** October 28, 2011, 05:52:54 AM »

Quote from: Doji Shikimi on October 28, 2011, 02:49:14 AM

And this new seppuku, I just can't figure out how to use it.

You can use it in an attempt to limit your opponents choice of targets. I don't know if its very good or not, but basically you can make the choice of killing your dishonorable personality yourself in an honorable fashion, preventing that honor loss from something else, or leaving the target open to your opponent's effects. The only time I can think of that it would be good to do this is if you only have 1-2 dishonored people before engaging in battle against a deck that abuses dishonored people, and you can spare that person.

Another note on dueling. If your opponent is throwing away his hand to win a duel, that is probably to your advantage, depending on how critical the duel is. Also, you can focus from the top of your deck until you get one bad card, then focus from your hand, while your opponent has to focus from his hand to keep up. And if they are intentionally running a high FV card pool for reasons other than dueling, you were going to have a problem with them anyway in a duel with the old rules or new ones, making duelist actually more useful now since if they can keep up with your duelist, then you still win.

Doji Shikimi · « **Reply #154 on:** October 28, 2011, 06:34:23 AM »

He doesn't have to throw his hand to win a duel. He wins if I lose my hand. He doesn't care if he wins or loses, because he already lost the second he went into the duel. The thing is, I can't know what he focuses, so unless I pack good focus effects, there is no point to call strike. Sure in the end he will strike or I will strike when I feel comfortable enough, but well too early to tell. Dueling is going to be interesting at the start of the arc. A complete change.

And yes, that's what I mean, how to use it. I know what it does, just not how much I will have to sacrifice. If he has no dishonor engine, it's not a problem and might work better than the old system. But as soon as his dishonor engine hits the table, I can either seppuku everything or ignore it and take the losses, maybe seppuku my 4+ph dudes to reduce the pain. I'll just have to wait for the new cards to see how it will work out, but these are the two things that will hit my playstyle the most.

Asahina Oku · « **Reply #155 on:** October 31, 2011, 03:57:45 AM »

Quote from: Hero123 on October 27, 2011, 06:30:19 PM

@ meangirl-Personally i like rock paper scissors.

isn't the idea of rock paper scissors EXACTLY what is happening with honor vs dishonor match up? they are going to design it so that military>dishonor>honor or something similar right? at least that's what i understood by the whole idea that honor decks will have to go military to fight dishonor......

the idea that of rock paper scissors with themes is just how it is going to work. if there weren't a set of checks and balances then nothing in the entire game would work because everyone would play the same deck.

The biggest flaw in comparing L5R to rock, paper, scissors is that L5R is so much more complex and it is never a 100% chance that rock will indeed beat scissors, etc. Switch decks, meta and creativity are the key to overcoming rock paper and scissors design.

Thinking that there can be a theme that has no weakness is probably just wishful thinking. I also think that there is no problem with the idea of R.P.S. because L5R is not a 2 dimensional game. there are more than 3 choices. fights between opposite spectrum will result in fun and unique games. but w/e.

Saisho wa gu.... jun ken PO!

I don't want to sit down across from someone, and know who's won as soon as the strongholds are flipped. I would like Dishonor to be challenging, but not disheartening.

I'd like Military to make things difficult, but not be completely overpowering.
I'd like Honor to be battle ready, and steady, not necessarily hyper-fast.
And I'd like Enlightenment to win at everything.

I mean... it's the name of the game. It should be the default win condition.

But apart from that, I'll be playing something like 4 clans next arc... I may wind up playing all of them, depending on what kinda discount a box of starters costs. The only hard part for me will be getting all the rares. I just hope every clan has a deck worth playing. I honestly don't care what win condition it is, provided it doesn't wreck the rest of the field.

jwindu · « **Reply #156 on:** November 01, 2011, 03:39:46 AM »

Quote from: Doji Shikimi on October 28, 2011, 02:49:14 AM

As soon as you drop a few 2's and 3's in your discard pile more often then not, your opponent will just smoke you. Especially if they actually run high fv cards. If he starts focusing from his deck, you have 2 options, focus from your hand and he wins (lose the duel, win because we need actions in our hand), if you focus from the top, you will run into those 2's and 3's.

You can't rely on the duel mechanic too much. Either you lose with a mirror duel matchup or you will lose from a smart player who notices low fv's dropping into discard piles. IMHO the issue is bigger, not smaller, as before, you'd stop focusing when you only had 1's and 2's left in your focus pool, now you'll just focus them blind (look after deciding to focus from the top) and you end up eating your hand to replace one.

Dueling is not weak, but it's not stronger either. Maybe it will be in the long run. I'm not sure how everything will eventually work and maybe I'm just reading too much into these strategies that will never happen. But I don't think we can just assume it will all be good and add a few 1's and 2's to our deck so easily. The question will be how to balance it all.

And this new seppuku, I just can't figure out how to use it.

Barring Tacticians and other duelists this isn't going to happen. Do you think kensai give a flying fart about what their focus values are? No. And having played lion tacticians quite a bit, I can promise you there will be 1's and 2's in their decks too. If you don't believe me go scope out the lion tactician decks on swiftsword, they run powerful cards first, and focus values are a 2ndary concern. Obviously they aren't gonna run nothing but 1's and 2's but neither would we. And if my opponent is gonna try and focus with me in a duel, then he is simply retarded, focus effects are always gonna be better in my deck than his as it's my theme. The whole point is, if he wants to guarantee the win by focusing out of hand and tries to win the duel because he wants to drop 4 cards out of his hand, then by all means. In fact if anyone ever wants to discard 4 cards to kill my personality, they have my blessing. Not to mention even if I hit a bad focus value or two (less likely with the duelist ability to replace a bad card either from deck or hand) my focus effects that I run will still benefit me. So my opponent discards 4 cards and I get extra effects but have to sacrifice a guy? Done deal. Dueling against a dueling deck, when you aren't a dueling deck yourself is a bad idea. Why would anyone give your opponent additional effects from the top of his deck, as well as have a significant chance of losing the duel since he wins ties and has a deck built with dueling in mind?

Doji Shikimi · « **Reply #157 on:** November 01, 2011, 04:19:44 AM »

But you are forgetting the main point. They don't have to win duels. We have to win duels. I'm not packing duels to lose them. If they focus from the top of their deck, I have to focus from my hand or at least focus from the top until a 2 or 1 hits and then start focusing from my hand.

You are turning it around. You think they'll drop their hand to win, but that's what we will do if we get into a serious focus fight with someone who is packing more than an average amount of high fv cards. If they run an average fv of 3+, that means we will have to focus with at least 2 4's to be able to win. And there is only 1 focus effect I'd run in my decks atm vs about 5 a non-duelist might consider, depending on the abilities on them. I'd say, it's stupid for us to focus in a duel, not the other way around. There is really no reason to be afraid of the 6 honor we will gain, because that also means that we won't be dishonoring 3 personalities and if in battle bow them and gain us 1 honor or make them lose 1 honor.

In the end, how deck construction works is still unknown and will remain like that until we have had some games under the belt. I just don't think you should be running a lot of 1's and 2's as it will make it very hard to focus from the top of your deck and will eat your hand. Maybe if we could get a Kakita reprint, that would be awesome.

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Author Topic: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes (Read 11740 times)

DAIDOJI PINUKIPAI

Re: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes

jwindu

Re: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes

Doji Shikimi

Re: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes

Mirith

Re: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes

Doji Shikimi

Re: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes

Asahina Oku

Re: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes

jwindu

Re: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes

Doji Shikimi

Re: [EE] Emperor Edition Rules Changes