Topic: [EE] Courtesy of the Crane (Strategy) (Read 8456 times)

Kakita Onimaru · « **Reply #15 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:30:29 PM »

At face Value I want to dismiss this card. Giving an opponent a card is crap, and the focus effect is worthless since I still dont see any reason we will get to focus (except for the staggering amount of duel meta, which makes me wonder why I would want to duel) but when taken with the staggering amount of card draw options we are getting im just not sure.

Doji Kouu · « **Reply #16 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:31:12 PM »

Quote from: Tsuruchi V on November 02, 2011, 01:25:41 PM

You're allowing your opponent a 1 in 40 chance to draw a card to hurt you. You then get a 1 in 20 chance to draw a card to help you against him, or a 1 in 40 chance to draw 2 cards to help you against him. I'd take those odds.

I probably don't understand this, but if there's more than one card in their deck that can "hurt" you, these odds don't mean anything.

Doji Hatashai · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:34:06 PM »

Quote from: Tsuruchi V on November 02, 2011, 01:25:41 PM

You're allowing your opponent a 1 in 40 chance to draw a card to hurt you. You then get a 1 in 20 chance to draw a card to help you against him, or a 1 in 40 chance to draw 2 cards to help you against him. I'd take those odds.

No. I'm cluttering my fate deck with a card that not only reproduces the effect of the favor, but it also helps my opponent get rid of his military meta, and get to his honor meta. This is just not good. I cannot make sense of your probability mechanics either, does my opponent have only 1 card out of 40 that is good against my deck? why? Is he a bad player? Do I have 2 cards out of 40? How you've explained it, isn't how probability works.

Tsuruchi V · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:37:12 PM »

Quote from: Kakita Hatashai on November 02, 2011, 01:34:06 PM

Quote from: Tsuruchi V on November 02, 2011, 01:25:41 PM
You're allowing your opponent a 1 in 40 chance to draw a card to hurt you. You then get a 1 in 20 chance to draw a card to help you against him, or a 1 in 40 chance to draw 2 cards to help you against him. I'd take those odds.

No. I'm cluttering my fate deck with a card that not only reproduces the effect of the favor, but it also helps my opponent get rid of his military meta, and get to his honor meta. This is just not good. I cannot make sense of your probability mechanics either, does my opponent have only 1 card out of 40 that is good against my deck? why? Is he a bad player? Do I have 2 cards out of 40? How you've explained it, isn't how probability works.

I'm trying to point out that you have twice the chance to draw a useful card than he does.

SpookyElectric · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:37:29 PM »

With all of the cards your dueling is going to drain from your opponent's hand, offering him a gift is the least you can do!

frostythecat · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:39:26 PM »

Quote from: Tsuruchi V on November 02, 2011, 01:25:41 PM

In either sense, you are discarding a card to draw two, and allowing your opponent to draw one. That puts you back on even hand size, but in a slightly better position. You now have two different (possibly better) cards in your hand, instead of one that doesn't help you.

This is true. However, would it not be better to not put the card that doesn't help you in your deck in the first place?

This is why the card isn't all that great. Both players are essentially at +1 cards, making it a symmetrical effect. The only time where such an effect is beneficial is if you can break that symmetry in your favor or if you are seeking to sculpt your hand for a winning combination. That is, where the marginal advantage of a 37 card fate deck is truly important to the strategy. The most obvious strategy for this is probably Enlightenment, along with Introspection for a 34 card deck. So I can see this being run in Shinden Asahina as an Honor/Enlightenment switch thing.

Hotaru · « **Reply #21 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:40:46 PM »

There's always Bonds of Coin if you don't like it.

Kakita Yuha · « **Reply #22 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:43:15 PM »

I dont like this card much either... shame really.

SpookyElectric · « **Reply #23 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:43:38 PM »

For an open control deck, drawing cards in the Limited phase is way more useful than allowing your opponent to do the same. So it's not exactly "equal" advantage in the military vs. honor matchup. Plus, I foresee us wanting to dig for cards early arc, and this might be one of the only ways to do that.

BUT: once a better option for reliable card draw comes along, I expect this one will go away very quickly. How soon or later that will be is anyone's guess.

Asahina Shimato · « **Reply #24 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:47:10 PM »

Maybe there's punishment for drawing cards that combos with this?

Good point about Enlightenment though.

Doji Yoshi · « **Reply #25 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:47:25 PM »

Card cycle: check
Focus Value 4: check
Focus effect defensive: check
Open: check

Doji Kioshi · « **Reply #26 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:51:27 PM »

This card is terrible for anything other than Enlightenment. I doubt it will see much play. I wouldn't be so disappointed except the Mantis virtue is really strong.

frostythecat · « **Reply #27 on:** November 02, 2011, 01:53:20 PM »

Quote from: SpookyElectric on November 02, 2011, 01:43:38 PM

For an open control deck, drawing cards in the Limited phase is way more useful than allowing your opponent to do the same. So it's not exactly "equal" advantage in the military vs. honor matchup. Plus, I foresee us wanting to dig for cards early arc, and this might be one of the only ways to do that.

BUT: once a better option for reliable card draw comes along, I expect this one will go away very quickly. How soon or later that will be is anyone's guess.

It also depends on when you draw this card. If you draw Courtesy of the Crane during the battle step, the end step or through A Game of Dice, then you either draw during your opponents Limited Phase which allows them to take advantage of the card first or you wait until your Limited Phasetin which case Courtesy was useless for one turn.

However, if you drew it on your turn through say Bonds of Coin, then Courtesy is much better. This is however dependent on the fact that you actually have something you need to dig for. That is, what you dig for needs to be more powerful than what your opponent could dig for. This is why I suggested enlightenment, as nothing is more powerful than "I win".

EDIT:

Quote from: Asahina Shimato

Maybe there's punishment for drawing cards that combos with this?

Good point about Enlightenment though.

This would also work. Any effect that would either hinder your opponent or benefit you for drawing cards further would instantly increase this cards value.

Doji Yoshi · « **Reply #28 on:** November 02, 2011, 02:00:09 PM »

Quote from: Doji Kioshi on November 02, 2011, 01:51:27 PM

This card is terrible for anything other than Enlightenment. I doubt it will see much play. I wouldn't be so disappointed except the Mantis virtue is really strong.

Then don't play it.

The purpose is card cycle, and it helps with the Ring of the Void.
At the beginning of EE, you should be playing decks that might not have optimal cards. This card allows for a smaller, more focused deck (using this + bonds of coin + ring of Void should give you a focused 33 card fate deck instead of 40).
It has a low cost (unbowed Crane) and the additional effect (giving your opponent a card) can be mitigated with this card (Twisted Fate) by using it on your opponents action phase before the end phase (unless they are also playing control).

Again, if it's not good enough, don't play it.

Yajinden Buffararo · « **Reply #29 on:** November 02, 2011, 02:02:22 PM »

Assess your foe is garbage.

This card is assess your foe plus a focus effect that isn't THAT great, and it is yet to be seen if we will ever get to even use it.

So overall, I call disappointment as far as our first (of 3) virtues.

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Author Topic: [EE] Courtesy of the Crane (Strategy) (Read 8456 times)