Topic: Lethality in L5R (Read 1399 times)

Bob · « **on:** May 30, 2012, 11:57:50 PM »

This past week in the game I run one of the PC's died. He was in a bamboo woods and found some human tracks crossing a boars tracks. the group decided to track the man. the see smoke from a campfire rising in the air. The ronin in the group decided to scout ahead. to find a ronin smoking a pipe at his campsite while cooking his hunt. The ronin was unfriendly to the PC stating he wanted to be left alone and his precence in the woods was none of the PC's bussiness. The PC decided to comment back to the tune of well im going to get my friends we will be right back then maybe you will talk to us. The ronin attacked the PC. He caused 12pts of damage to the PC in the first round and the PC attacked back while calling to his allies. The next round the ronin did over 40 pts of damage in a hit because I rolled up like a fiend, killing the PC. I have a tendacy to roll in front of my PC's so there was no way to fudge it so the PC would just be down instead of dead. It sucked because I had alot planned for the PC.

Today I had one of the other PC's tell me he had an issue with the death of the other PC, and told me a slew of reasons I could have not killed the PCand how bad a call I made while running the game. How would you all take this, and have you ever been in the same scenario?

Asahina Raido · « **Reply #1 on:** May 31, 2012, 12:11:35 AM »

L5R's combat system is brutal. Extremely brutal. If you get involved in combat, people die a lot. I had one player die twice in my recently ended game that i ran, and one nearly die, and this was often 2 on 1/3 on 1 situations favouring the PCs. As you are relying on luck, you can't help it when a dice suddenly explodes like a madman and your little 5k2 Katana suddenly does instead of maybe 11-18 damge it does 30+. However, i disagree with whoever gave you reasons for killing him. He could have used void to reduce damage for example, although if he died from 52 damage i suspect he was only 2 earth and no reduction armour? Was the Ronin a higher point character?

You don't always have to take the highest dice from a roll, i have a few times left a big dice just to keep a game going but not often.

If i was in your place, i would point out that in L5R, people die in combat. A lot. Bring in zombies, or Oni, and suddenly they'll be wishing for that one little Ronin to come back

. It's about strategy. In a one on one situation, fighting is all about luck. If he was calling for allies, he could have full defensed to raise his TN and use Void.

In the end, for all the plans in the world you can make, one roll of the dice can ruin everything. It can also open up more roleplaying possibilities. You could easily create a brand new direction from that one Ronin killing a PC, bandit activity or even a Ronin rebellion.

Nobody likes their character dying, but the only way to avoid it is to avoid combat. On a lucky roll, a chicken could kill the Emperor after all.

Dario

Faris Kalin · « **Reply #2 on:** May 31, 2012, 10:59:51 PM »

People complain about this is all rpgs. I say let the dice fall where they may. That's just part of the L5R experience. The PC had a choice. He could have focused on defense while calling for help or turned tail and ran.

At any rate, I certainly wouldn't blame the GM in this case.

Daidoji Karei · « **Reply #3 on:** June 01, 2012, 02:52:10 AM »

Quote from: Kakita Jin on May 30, 2012, 11:57:50 PM

This past week in the game I run one of the PC's died. He was in a bamboo woods and found some human tracks crossing a boars tracks. the group decided to track the man. the see smoke from a campfire rising in the air. The ronin in the group decided to scout ahead. to find a ronin smoking a pipe at his campsite while cooking his hunt. The ronin was unfriendly to the PC stating he wanted to be left alone and his precence in the woods was none of the PC's bussiness. The PC decided to comment back to the tune of well im going to get my friends we will be right back then maybe you will talk to us. The ronin attacked the PC. He caused 12pts of damage to the PC in the first round and the PC attacked back while calling to his allies. The next round the ronin did over 40 pts of damage in a hit because I rolled up like a fiend, killing the PC. I have a tendacy to roll in front of my PC's so there was no way to fudge it so the PC would just be down instead of dead. It sucked because I had alot planned for the PC.

Today I had one of the other PC's tell me he had an issue with the death of the other PC, and told me a slew of reasons I could have not killed the PCand how bad a call I made while running the game. How would you all take this, and have you ever been in the same scenario?

Shiba Yoshirou · « **Reply #4 on:** June 01, 2012, 04:19:02 AM »

If your group has issues with lethality house rules can help with that. For instance if you started all PCs off with their Earth Ring at 3 or if that is too strong increase the last tier of wounds so it takes more to put them 'out', but the TN penalty still keeps them mostly out of th fight. The rules system is very flexible and can easily be modified to suit your playgroup, in fact the books have many suggestions to tweak the game for a variety of purposes. Though it is best to implement these house rules at the beginning of a campaign, but if your group has an issue like the one you described they may welcome the change.

Celeryman Kintaro · « **Reply #5 on:** June 01, 2012, 05:01:25 AM »

I personally think the lethality of L5R-RPG is okay as it is - it means that any serious opponent can kill an overconfident or careless PC, and make no mistake, your PC was courting the death he got.

Truth be told, all RPGs have a certain conflict - the conflict between character development on the one hand (which falters if PCs get killed, more so if several PCs die in a short time) and a sense of risk and drama on the other. Simply put any victory easily won, or fights without serious risk to the PCs life and wellbeing are perceived as pointless. A certain lethality adds tension, drama and worth to the interactions and fights of PCs.
In terms of lethality, L5R-RPG is...above average. Not highly deadly like, say, Rolemaster or Call of Cthulhu or various other "gritty" systems, but more deadly than D&D or most other heroic fantasy systems. Engaging in fights that are anything but one-sided puts the PCs at risk. I personally think that's okay, makes the PCs pick their fights and avoid unnecessary ones, or makes fights against dangerous opponents more relevant. In a sense, engaging in a fight that might realistically kill them allows the PCs to make a point.

I presume the Ronin was of equal strength to the PC and the PC had some prior warning that the situation might get out of hand...in that case his death is unfortunate but I think nothing worth changing the rules over.

Well, except for possibly letting the final wound rank have x3 wounds like Yoshirou suggests, and having the option to "faint" at Down so anyone but Cruel characters or sworn enemies do stop going after the PCs, to give them a chance to have a close call.

Kakita Kamiko · « **Reply #6 on:** June 01, 2012, 07:52:09 AM »

People are always whining about this. I say let them whine, don't change what you are doing. If a character dies in combat, oh well, maybe they should have used strategy instead of assuming you were going to allow them to magically live. I much rather things be intense all the time, I hate it when a GM allows people to live because he/she doesn't have the balls to kill the PC.

Kill the PCs! With good reason of course. The situations should be believable, not fake and obviously skewed so far that no one is ever in any danger. Players will also snap out of their 'god syndrome' that nothing can kill them the first time a PC dies, and when that happens 'shiz just got real yo', and they won't be so stupid in the future.

Kwanshu · « **Reply #7 on:** June 01, 2012, 08:41:30 AM »

That is a story that happens all the time in L5R. Characters are not indestructible, they are actually very frail. Other game systems there may be very little consequence for doing what your player did, and maybe this player expected similar results. That is definitely not the case... and one lucky shot is all it really takes. I explain that to all of my players, as well as explain (and remind them of) the options to help prolong their survivability.

I usually offer them the choice at the beginning of play:

"Would you like to have more than 5x/2x earth wounds per rank?" -- I usually receive a 'no' for that, the players like the drastic change in systems.

"You guys may want to look in to Great Destiny and Dark Fate... they're great story perks and can save you from my 'lucky' rolls." -- This is the one I typically pass off to people. Had a Bayushi get tangled up with a column of Lion who demanded he observe the battle... so the Captain put him in with the deathseekers so he could observe first-hand from the front. That guy was so thankful he took a "get out of death free" card that day.

And then when doing damage to them I typically ask:

"Would you like to spend a void point to reduce that?" -- They usually answer yes to this.

We had a guy who had to rewrite a character 3 weeks in a row because of lucky rolls against him or putting himself into bad situations. He was a great sport about it, at least, so there were no problems. Then there was my Akodo with an Earth of 2 for the longest and the group swore he could survive nuclear winter. He always walked away from a fight with a concussion, impalement, some kind of grievous gash... broken armor, the works. The margin between death and barely walking away from a conflict is VERY small.

Shiba Yoshirou · « **Reply #8 on:** June 01, 2012, 05:25:28 PM »

For my part I have issues in that I rather enjoy my character dying so I can write up a new one!

Celeryman Kintaro · « **Reply #9 on:** June 02, 2012, 12:48:22 AM »

Quote from: Shiba Yoshirou on June 01, 2012, 05:25:28 PM

For my part I have issues in that I rather enjoy my character dying so I can write up a new one!

Death and rebirth, Firechicken-style

DaidojiHikori · « **Reply #10 on:** June 02, 2012, 01:36:59 AM »

Lethality in this game is really high...I really try to push players towards rethinking twice or thrice before combat and give them other ways out since both them and the npc shouldn't be that aggressive usually...unless fearless of death or overconfident and even then non-lethal solutions are quite acceptable. Also killing people on the blue holds reprecussions and most wouldn't claim a life unless they really had to (goes both for characters and npc)being punished afetr victorious combat or hunted by magistrates isn't that nice!!

Shiba Yoshirou · « **Reply #11 on:** June 02, 2012, 01:51:41 AM »

Also this lethality can humorously go both ways. In one game my shugenja rolled crazy damage with Breath of the Dragon in round one of a major fight killing a guy who was going to be a recurring villain and severly wounding a pair of his disciples

Faris Kalin · « **Reply #12 on:** June 02, 2012, 01:53:04 AM »

Quote from: Celeryman Kintaro on June 02, 2012, 12:48:22 AM

Quote from: Shiba Yoshirou on June 01, 2012, 05:25:28 PM
For my part I have issues in that I rather enjoy my character dying so I can write up a new one!

Death and rebirth, Firechicken-style

Too bad you can't just reincarnate as easily as with the Henshin box.

Kakita Isao · « **Reply #13 on:** June 02, 2012, 03:15:49 AM »

A samurai lives three feet from death.

When you're a warrior in a warrior society and carry a three foot razor blade ready to die at your lord's will, death is inevitable. My first character that died was the namesake Kakita Isao who died to a Unicorn turned ronin. I was playing Heroes of Rokugan 2 at the time and I went on to create Shiba Masahiro who went on to be the most powerful Void shugenja in the campaign (3rd edition Void rules were silly in hindsight). As a player, it is important to get into the mindset that its not "when" your character will die, but "how." If you're lucky, it will be as a retired monk... Or depending on your play style, maybe on the battlefield in the thick of battle where your death brings a victory for your clan.

Your mileage may vary.

I know that we as players easily get attached to our characters. If you feel that the lethality is fine as a GM, don't change anything and let your players know. If you feel empathy for the players and their respective characters, I recommend giving each character one of the "extra life" feats. And while its your campaign, its the player's campaign as well for as much as they invest their time in it. Talk it out.

Asahina Raido · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2012, 02:57:23 AM »

I do love and hate the luck element of L5R. Rolling 35 damage on a 5k2 roll can suck for a player, but rolling 12 on 7k4 just makes me laugh. Online dicerollers seem to be cursed too

Dario

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Author Topic: Lethality in L5R (Read 1399 times)